help me plumb my tank, and with some other ideas please

[Scooterman]

http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2003/short.htm

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8922&highlight=anthony+manifold

Check this one out!

 

[trillyen]

what powers the cl systems i dont understand that part ive got the general idea

i just dont understand where that current is coming from

is there a pump on thee other end or something????

 

[Scooterman]

Yep! Closed Loop is as simple as a pump that has a suction from either a BH or over the top into the tank. It then pumps that water out to outlets made of PVC or to many BH's drilled through the tank. In your tank being not drilled, you simply make a manifold where outlets with loc-line will pump water back into the tank, this will make super water flow with no extra PH's in the tank.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31723&highlight=closed+loop

Under Dons post he has two CL on that tank!

& below look at these pics of the Manifold, 2nd post pics!

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15513&highlight=calfo+style+manifold

 

[trillyen]

with no extra ph in the tank what is ........PH

cause I have no odes

I think my understanding how ok gonna plumb my tank is coming together a little bit more

I really just need a pic of some ones tank that is using A over flow like me

And how n the heck do you know what size PVC you have to have to fit over your PVC

Do you just take it to lower and fit it there

And do I just basically measure how long I need my piping to be from the bottom of the refuge to the top of the over flow

and what are some of the benefits of a turn off valve and foes it make life any easier to have 1

Thanks friends.

 

[james734]

PH= Power Head(s)
BH= Bulk Head(s)

 

[trillyen]

with no extra ph in the tank what is ........PH

cause I have no odes

I think my understanding how ok gonna plumb my tank is coming together a little bit more

I really just need a pic of some ones tank that is using A over flow like me

And how n the heck do you know what size PVC you have to have to fit over your PVC

Do you just take it to lower and fit it there

And do I just basically measure how long I need my piping to be from the bottom of the refuge to the top of the over flow

and what are some of the benefits of a turn off valve and foes it make life any easier to have 1

Thanks friends.

ohh thanks james duhh i should have knew that

lol

 

[james734]

Trillyen,

Basically get one of these.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~CR1515.html (maybe not this one specifically, but you get the idea)

Then head to Lowe's, HD or whatever your favorite hardware store is.

This Overflow in the link has a 1" bulkhead in it. So get some 1" pipe and what ever other fittings that might be needed to get down to the sump. (If it where me I up size from 1" to 1-1/2" pipe. Just so there is no restrictions)

Then buy pretty much the same amount of pipe (1") and maybe a few fittings etc. to plumb the sump return back to the tank.


Another option is to use Spa-Flex or some call it K-flex. It's somewhat flexible and may not require any fittings. It's PVC so you can glue fittings etc. to if required.

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/spaflex.html

As for shut off valves (Ball-Valves) it all depends. I use them but typically my tank(s) are drilled and most of the time required especially if I need to remove a pump for maintenance etc. With going over the tank etc. it's pretty easy to stop the water flow manually with out them.

Since you're using 2 sumps, if I read this correctly you might want to use 2 overflows, 1 on each side.

Like Scooter stated getting the flow from the return pumps really isn't going to work. In order to get the flow from the return pumps will require some large pumps that will more than likely pump the water back up from the sump to fast for the over flows to handle it. (Flood).

It's really not that hard to plumb this all up. It's hard to get it wrong, if you do worse case you have to redo some of it. Heck I've re-plumbed my tank a couple of times. I'd do it one way 6 months down the road come up with another idea and re-plumb it again. The key thing to remember is as long as it moves the water from the tank to the sump and back without any leaks, it's doing what it's supposed to do.

So start plumbing....

 

[trillyen]

M all thy other friends on here but your post just almost single handedly let me know that I do have the intelligence to to this

I was wondering what the heck a bulk head was. It dosent seem like that's what that thing should be called

Thanks alot James I owe you 1

I mean that

Do my plan from here on out thanks to you guys is just to basically do what James said as far as taking my overflows to lowes and fitting them how ever I do want shut off valves just for the cool look.

Would it be ok if I used shut off valves on both the intake and out take flows. Does it serve any benifit??

As far ad the intake tube goes I think I want the end that goes in the five to go all the way to the bottom of the intake chamber in the sump, and I wanna drill holes in the PVC for the water to come out, even though it will probably still come out of the bottom tubing at the bottom of the intake chamber under all the live rock.

I would really love to to a closed loop I just don't understand where the water comes from??

Q. In a closed loop can i use a submersible pump or do I have to use an external pump?

If I can use a submersible pump do I have to give it its own water source. I just don't understand where the closed loop gets its water from??

Can a submersible pump run out side the water or will it burn up???

Can I use a really strong power head and tube and clamp the tube to the ph and run the tubing or PVC (which ever I decide to use ) around the top rim of the tank. Is that a closed loop??

Depending on what size phead I use will that cause enough flow

Thanks alot for all the help

1 more thing is there any additional plumbing I could do in my sump?

Just to make it look more professional. I have a super skimmer 125 and a back up 55 gallon skimmer there any way I could kind of plumb them into each other and would it b any more benifical still using both power heads to power the skimmers could I do that?

I don't have any reactors eight now or anything so the skimmers would be the only thing I'm plumbing in

The skimmers would just be pretty much plumbed to gather but each in its own refuge 29 gallon tank

I don't know just sounds cool I guess

thanks guys

 

[Scooterman]

I haven't done much with that type overflows but I know Krish had done a lots with them, also James so I'll leave that to the guys that know more about them. Here is a link to lots of plumbing, It has lots of Pictures Might help. http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10264

Personally I know your trying to figure it all out & it can be difficult, I know you want it done right so planning like your doing will be very helpful, I'm still re-plumbing my tank, after a year I'm still changing things so don't let that bother you so much if you don't get it quite right, you will figure it out. I would focus on one thing right now & get it right, start off slow & you'll get it better, I know this goes aginst what is said for planning ahead but If you break the tank build down then your chances of making it better will be improved. Start off with getting flow from the main tank to the sump, get that figured out & build it, once you get it working then you can move on to your next project. I know we normally plan for everything but usually that is for the people that have more experience in plumbing & tank design, rather try to do it all I think you'll get better results If we break it down, you'll learn more & make it better In my opinion. Please don't take that wrong I'm just trying to help you get the best you can. So IMO (In my opinion), I'd work on simple flow from the main tank to the sump, get that working, then we move on from there & build more, not that learning how others things work is bad you do want to learn all that also but just do it in smaller steps.

 

[james734]

You'll get it. Just take your time and it will all work out fine.

For a closed loop. Basically you pull water from the tank with a pump and feed it right back into the tank. It doesn't go down to the sump or anything.

Do you remember those old match box car tracks? No imagine the car as the water and the track as the pipe. The motor (pump) the part of the track that actually pushed the car on the track (the spinning wheels the grabbed the side of the car). The car continued to go around and around without going anywhere else. That's a closed loop. The water from the tank is pulled into the pump and pushed right back in the the tank where it came from.

Tank-->---Water-->-PUMP
|---<---Water----<--|

Does that make any sense now?

 

[trillyen]

yeah that made me get it down to a fine art thank you but is the only way that i can get the water in the closed loop by tieng off a powerfull ph and tubing it to the pvc that runs around the top rim of my tank???

i really dont want any ph in my tank so is there any way i could set a power head or a return pump on the out side of my tank to do this im sure i could use a out of water pump but i dont wanna

will a submersible pump work out side of the water????

if not i may invest in a out of water return i just dont want it giant sized, and how do i get the pvc to stay up around the rim of my tank????

what holds it there????

will i have to kind of plumb my tank like a under gravel filter????

if i do have to use a ph as my closed loop pump as far as inside the tank where would be a good place to put it

would it be a good idea to use 2 pumps on one closed loop would that cause more flow??? Or would that be stupid????

Sory for the question s if there dumb but you guys are opening my eyes 2 knew ideas!!!

thanks!!1

 

[Scooterman]

Ok this first photo is about as simple of a CL you can get, Instead of a huger manifold over the top it just comes back up & "Tee's" for the outlet, that is the part on the left side of the first pic, it just pumps water right back into the tank. If you look closely the Intake also goes up into the tank & back down with PVC & a bunch of holes to suck in water, bigger pumps need more PVC & more holes because they will suck in anything around them like (fish, crabs etc) but this works well. This type of CL will need to be primed with water to get it started, which just means you need to fill the piping with water before starting it, (you can't run the pump dry)! If you look at the PVC part with all the holes it goes up to a Tee, this Tee has a Threaded cap, once you have it all glued up & ready to run, you just unscrew that cap & fill it with tank water then tighten the Tee back up, you will have to use Teflon on any & all PVC threads & warp the threads at least 5 complete wraps.
In the second Pic, Is my old 100g tank, If you look to the back you see a PVC pipe going down, it was full of holes & had a cap glued on the end, this was where it sucked in water for the CL, the rest you can only see on of the outlets in the top left but I had two, one on each side. I'll see If I can Dig up some more designs for your CL.

This all just hangs there, really doesn't need anything to hold it in place, you can put the pump behind the stand somewhere & no PH's required in the tank! & don't feel bad about asking questions, how else can you learn!

 

[Scooterman]

Another CL design, you could just leave the SCWD out & put a Tee in place, don't like the Scwds.

http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html

 

[krisfal]

I believe most PHs can be used outside of the tank, if you pull the cover off you will see where you can attach the pipe. But you may want to go ahead and purchase a bigger water pump for more flow, just keep in mind you probably want something that is not to loud as you will not be submerging it to muffle the sound.

I think Krish had a closed loop that used two pumps instead of one. There is a picture of it on post #8 in this thread http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29000&highlight=closed+loop

I built a rack out of 3/4" PVC to support my pump and closed loop return, I wish it was not so tight behind my tank so I could get some better pictures to show you what I put together. The rack was designed to hold my pump up higher to minimize head loss and to support the weight of the plumbing.

On a side note I ordered a Dolphin Amp master 5100S pump last night, I am hoping that it will solve my microbubble problem and it definately will provide more flow (5100gph!:badgrin::badgrin

 

[james734]

There's no such thing as a dumb question.....We all have to learn some way.

You'll get it.

 

[trillyen]

5100 gph my GOSH
thats crazy i bet that thing was a months mortage for me

had to be

Hey guys thanks for all that your doing trying to get me pics i really appreciate it but they really aint helping i mean the pics are great and i can see how the stuff should look i just still dont get it!!!

im gonna grab my pumps today when i get up and just go to lowes and buy elbows and joints and shut off valves and other stuff that would look cool and measureing tape and something to cut the long tubes i get, and just go at it

i really just need to get the reef safe pvc glue

wont super glue work??? or do i need like pvc glue, and do i need special scissors to cut the stuff

im gonna also need those metal things that you tie off stuff that has water running through it so it wont leak also.. its like a clamp but it looks like a metal rubber band or something that you screw over like the end of the powerhead where the water comes out

im gonna have my stuff looking pretty good i hope

i may buy a couple 29 gallon tanks tomorrow also so ill ahve 1 on hand when i start my reef tank up

1 more thing as far as baffles go in a sump ive noticed that some of you have them to where there kinda like up in the air which looks like the purpose would be to stop any thing floating in the water from getting to the return pump..

is that what they are raised above all the other baffles for or does theem being slightly un submerged serve another purpose

what ever the case i think they look cool and i plan to add them to all my up and coming refuges


thanks guys!!

 

[Scooterman]

Super-glue would leave you with a room full of water, you will need PVC primer & PVC glue, find it the same place you get the PVC parts. It won't hurt to go out & get a bunch of PVC parts, Pipe, Elbows & a few Union Ball Valves, I'm guessing 3/4" & maybe 1" PVC parts, depending on what pumps you get. Also You can buy a PVC Cutter tool in the same store, they work wonders, get one.
Baffles aAre like you said to stop stuff from going back into the main tank, like air bubbles & also is used to maintain a water level in your sump. Be careful when making this because you could end up pumping water on the floor if you don't get the sump right. LOL man If you knew anyone with a tank locally I'd go check out their stuff, also go ask the local fish store to see their plumbing, it helps I promise you, this stuff doesn't come right away.

 

[Krish]

Hey Trillyen! I started browsing through this thread and see a lot was mentioned! I'll see if I could add a bit in here without repeating what was already said If so, my apologies as I didn't read the whole thread word for word.

If you want to do a closed loop on your tank without drilling your tank, you will want to do an "over the tank" closed loop sorta like I did on my 75gal. What you will have is a pump sitting out of the water (possibly in your stand) that will suck water from the tank and return it back. Main thing you will need to do is make sure you are using a pump that can be used externally otherwise you risk the problem of burning up the pump.

Here are a few pics to show you how I did my over the tank closed loop.

attachment 1 - This is the suction for the closed loop that will go from the tank into the pump. I used flex pvc so I wouldn't have to use all sorts of 90's and 45's to get the pvc to bend. This stuff bends gradually on it's own which eliminates the use of the 90's and 45's and is pvc so it will bond to any pvc fitting using the same pvc cement.

attacment 2 - This is the intake pipe you saw in attachment 1 sitting on the tank. The red arrow is pointing to the cap that you remove before staring up the pump for the first time to prime the plumbing by just pouring in water until it is full (the plumbing). The reason why is because if you didn't, your lines (plumbing) will be full of air and you will just be blowing tons of bubbles into the tank. The blue arrow is pointing to a cover I made just to hide the plumbing sitting in the tank. It is not necessary but I thought I'd point it out incase you wondered what it was. The yellow arrow is just pointing to the suction part of the closed loop that sits in the tank. At the bottom of the plumbing is a small strainer to prevent small fish etc from being sucked in.

attachment 3 - This is the pump sitting on a shelf (out of the water) with the suction/intake attached to it. That big round pvc fitting you see is called a union and it is there incase you need to detach the pump for cleaning and so forth. Makes life easy.

attachment 4 - shows the output side of the closed loop. Instead of using pvc fittings, I just used clear vinyl hose (black would be better though to prevent algae build up).

attachment 5 - Is my alien looking output manifold made from pvc fittings I painted black and some lockline fittings which are used to direct flow where you want it in the tank

I will start a new post to show you how it looked sitting on the tank with a few more pics. One sec

 

[Krish]

Attachment 1 - Shows my alien manifold sitting on the center brace of the tank

attachement 2 - Shows the manifold again on top of the tank

attachment 3 - Shows all you see of the manifold sitting under water which is the 2 lockline nozzles

attachement 4 - Shows the pump once again sitting above the sump.

Pretty straight forward to give you an idea of how it works. A list of the parts you'll need is easy to figure out. All we'd need to know is which pump you are going with, what the input and output size of the pump is and how many outputs you want to go with. Many ways to do what I did, but thought I'd give you an idea for starters.

Also, I saw you mentioned you didn't want any 45's and 90's so all you'd need to do is use the flex pvc and it will eliminate them. Hope that helped some. Let me know if I missed anything.



BTW, I'll add a few pics of howa closed loop works if using bulkheads which I did on another tank if you plan to drill. Same general principle, but little different approach. Give me a sec.

 

[Krish]

K...Here's what I did on my 38gal cube. I did the closed loop the first time using just one pump and wanted more flow so I re-did it without tearing too much apart and added in another pump. This is the reason for all of the 90's and 45's. Should have re-done the whole thing, but was lazy at the time

Attachment 1 - Red arrows point to the suction for the closed loop. As you can see the pumps are out of the water. A hole was drilled through the tank, a bulkhead was installed which allows you to plumb in the pump. The green arrow shows a true union ball valve which allows you to remove the pump but not flood the place. You simply shut off the pump, close all of the valves and release the fitting which stops the water from flowing. Then once you finish cleaning your pump or whatever, you reconnect, open the vlaves and resume blowing up the place with flow The pink/purple arrows point to the 4 outputs to the tank which are through bulkheads again. So ther is one suction and 2 outputs for each pump. The yellow arrow is not related but is the return nozzle for my sump and the white arrow is not related either but is the drain for the sump coming from the overflow.

attachment 2 - This shot shows the output coming from the top 2 outputs that I tried Y adaptors on to split the flow.

Attachment 3 - Shows all the holes drilled into the tank for the closed loop without the bulkheads in yet.

attachment 4 - The red arrows show the strainers for the suction for the closed loop attached to the bulkheads and the yellow arrows shows the lockline attachments for the outputs in the tank.

attachement 5 - Shows a side shot of the back of the tank so you can get a better look at the bulkheads and how much space everything takes up. I'll grab a few more shots for you. Give me a sec again