I need macro algae asap!

[DonW]

I will start using my water change water as you suggested earlier and see if that makes a change but now im considering ditching the canister all together. I have atleast 50#'s of live rock in my tank. 50#'s should be enough. Do you think that I could remove all the baskets from the filter and add a bunch of rubble in the filter to give me more bio filtration until I can get a sump installed for me to place my rock rubble?

You can loose the canister filter all together or just use it for carbon. The rubble will do the same and create nitrates. With your current biload 50lbs LR is plenty. The carbon will also have to be maintained so that it does not turn into a bio filter and creat nitrates. The key is O2 and your canister filter has plenty of it which make it aerobic.

Don

 

[returnofsid]

As has been mentioned, either completely get rid of the canister filter, OR only use it for carbon, WITHOUT any sponges or ceramic media. These are both contributing to your nitrates, since they're in an aerobic environment (oxygenated water).

Also, changing our your carbon, at regular intervals, will keep it from turning into a source of nitrates, as it also traps detritus, which will create nitrates, in an aerobic environment.

Have you tested your LFS water? It could be that the LFS water is your nitrate source, though I'm fairly certain it's the canister filter/sponge/ceramic media.

 

[1guydude]

how is a canister a aerobic enviorment? In my mind it would be opposite and have lack of oxygen! The sponges do indeed contain good bacteria for breaking things down! Im not gonna go changing things when it works...

 

[Krish]

how is a canister a aerobic enviorment? In my mind it would be opposite and have lack of oxygen! The sponges do indeed contain good bacteria for breaking things down! Im not gonna go changing things when it works...

I haven't read the whole thread but look at it this way...Your fish poops in the tank or you throw food in the tank etc and it makes it's way to the sponge that traps it. How is that helping you if the sponge still sits in your canister un-cleaned? You may as well let the poop float around in the tank than to keep a sponge full of waste in a system that isn't either changed or cleaned every 3 days atleast. If not, the waste, food...whatever will rott and degrade your water quality. It's like having your garbage can full to the top and instead of throwing it out, you just let it sit. Eventually, you would have to move out of your house. Or better yet, use the bathroom and not flush it for a week. I mean the toilet is there to catch waste right? See how the house smells after a few hours, much less a few days without flushing it. So you allow a sponge to sit with trapped waste in it longer than about three days and you will have yourself a nitrate factory. There are no anaerobic zones in a canister for denitrification to take place so the end result of a canister filter is nitrates. We've had many debates on this topic. When I get to a pc I'll send you a link.


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[DonW]

how is a canister a aerobic enviorment? In my mind it would be opposite and have lack of oxygen! The sponges do indeed contain good bacteria for breaking things down! Im not gonna go changing things when it works...

Water carries o2, the intake water is oxygenated thus aerobic. A non debatable fact. Your creating nitrates and you LR is getting rid of them so why not make it work more efficiently rather than dosing nitrates. Basic reef chemistry is a good thing to learn.

Don

 

[Krish]

Here's a thread on canisters that we got into a good debate on if you feel like reading a bit.
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f14/canister-filter-57370/

 

[returnofsid]

how is a canister a aerobic enviorment? In my mind it would be opposite and have lack of oxygen! The sponges do indeed contain good bacteria for breaking things down! Im not gonna go changing things when it works...

This should be obvious. Circulating water = aerobic water.

Your sense that "it works," is a false sense. Sponges do indeed contain "good bacteria for breaking things down!" However, that bacteria is GOOD at breaking down Ammonia and Nitrites, NOT Nitrates. Ammonia and Nitrites are reduced, in an aerobic environment. Nitrates require an ANaerobic environment, bordering on an Anoxic environment. This, your sponges, in your canister filter are NOT breaking down nitrates, but ARE contributing to nitrates, as they collect detritus, in an aerobic environment.

 

[steven11]

Water carries o2, the intake water is oxygenated thus aerobic. A non debatable fact. Your creating nitrates and you LR is getting rid of them so why not make it work more efficiently rather than dosing nitrates. Basic reef chemistry is a good thing to learn.

Don

Don,
I don't know that LR is a nitrate consumer. Or atleast that's not how it was explained to me. Established live rock is a waste producer ie detritus. Consuming excess food and fish poop then shedding that out as detritus. Nitrates are the product of organic matter breaking down in the system. Better to deal with the poop and extra food before it turns into nitrates.

Best way to deal with this is good flow to keep it suspended and a good filtration system to pull the matter out of the water quickly. Any type of media or sponge will trap the matter and allow it to break down in the tank water. Unlike a protein skimmer that pulls it out and holds it separately. I do have filter pad as a part of my filtration because I have big waste producing fish, however I am cleaning the pad every other day.

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[DonW]

Don,
I don't know that LR is a nitrate consumer. Or atleast that's not how it was explained to me. Established live rock is a waste producer ie detritus. Consuming excess food and fish poop then shedding that out as detritus. Nitrates are the product of organic matter breaking down in the system. Better to deal with the poop and extra food before it turns into nitrates.

Best way to deal with this is good flow to keep it suspended and a good filtration system to pull the matter out of the water quickly. Any type of media or sponge will trap the matter and allow it to break down in the tank water. Unlike a protein skimmer that pulls it out and holds it separately. I do have filter pad as a part of my filtration because I have big waste producing fish, however I am cleaning the pad every other day.

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Steven

Your also missing the basics. The bacteria in the Anearobic zone of the LR is what takes care of your nitrates thus why we use LR and why its called LR.

Don

 

[returnofsid]

Keep in mind, the live rock is made up of Aerobic zones (on the surface) and Anaerobic zones (internally). This is why the live rock is capable of breaking down Ammonia/Nitrites, with the Aerobic bacteria and breaking down Nitrates, with the Anaerobic bacteria. Live sand acts in the same fashion, though it takes a deep sand bed, to create Anaerobic zones.

 

[1guydude]

i know the basics... I have plenty of LR and a 1-3in sand bed!
I havent had any reading of anmonia, trites, or trates unless i forget to plug the canister back in! I unplug it during feeding time everyday for several hrs. Like i said i clean em and change em how i do it and if it works im not gonna go changin it! Canisters work they just require more maintence than a sump. When i used to forget to plug the canister back in i would have a reading of trites which i would handle with a quick w/c... so imo the canister works fine with good maintence and filter changing!
I will say that when i upgrade and get my new house i will have all sumped tanks and be getting rid of the canister just cuz its a pita!

I'll read that link later tonght to try and get some more input and info on the subject....im at work now so i gotta go ! LOL

 

[DonW]

i know the basics... I have plenty of LR and a 1-3in sand bed!
I havent had any reading of anmonia, trites, or trates unless i forget to plug the canister back in! I unplug it during feeding time everyday for several hrs. Like i said i clean em and change em how i do it and if it works im not gonna go changin it! Canisters work they just require more maintence than a sump. When i used to forget to plug the canister back in i would have a reading of trites which i would handle with a quick w/c... so imo the canister works fine with good maintence and filter changing!
I will say that when i upgrade and get my new house i will have all sumped tanks and be getting rid of the canister just cuz its a pita!

I'll read that link later tonght to try and get some more input and info on the subject....im at work now so i gotta go ! LOL

Sorry but that is just plain not how it works. Your canister has some beneficial bacteria converting ammonia to nitrites then to nitrates. They do nothing for nitrates if your seeing nitrites by unplugging the canister then you have problems, meaning your tank would be cycling. I'd suggest going back and do some reading on denitrification.

Don

 

[steven11]

Steven

Your also missing the basics. The bacteria in the Anearobic zone of the LR is what takes care of your nitrates thus why we use LR and why its called LR.

Don

I must be missing something. I want to deal with the matter before it turns into trates and/or trites by means of complete, or close to, removal. I would rather my skimmer eat the fish turd then the bacterias in my LR.

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[DonW]

I must be missing something. I want to deal with the matter before it turns into trates and/or trites by means of complete, or close to, removal. I would rather my skimmer eat the fish turd then the bacterias in my LR.

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Thats a pretty good theory and in a perfect world it would work and no bio filtration would be needed. Hasnt happened in the last few decades probably never will.

Don

 

[jrgilles]

If your tank is cycled you should not detect Nitrites ever. During cycling you will first have ammonia, that will then go down as the bacteria colonizes that turns NH4 into Nitrites, at which point your nitrites will spike. Then the bacteria will establish that turns the nitrites into nitrates. Once that initial nitrite spike is gone, you should not have detectable ammonia (NH4) or nitrites in the system ever, only nitrates.

If you have any nitrites, you have stirred up a bunch of sedement and overwhelmed the bacteria flora in your tank, and it has to rebalance itself. Short of stirring up a ton of poop all at once, you should never be able to detect nitrites.

 

[steven11]

Thats a pretty good theory and in a perfect world it would work and no bio filtration would be needed. Hasnt happened in the last few decades probably never will.

Don

I'm not saying that biofiltration doesn't play a part. But if you are not actively trying to remove as much as possible right away, long term you are going to have issues. A little birdie once told me that the denitrification process is a bunch of bull as far as our tanks are concerned anyways. Maybe he will crawl out of his cave to chime in.

Josh- as far as you're concerned, you are better off getting rid of the canister filter and adding a sump and proper protein skimmer. Any equipment, media reactor or sponge that traps and holds gunk will become suspect. If you decide to use one, they require very regular maintenance.

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[Krish]

Talking a bit to Mojo about denitrification, from what I gathered, not much denitrification within our rocks takes place by the time the rocks get into our tanks and become "established". Atleast not in the way most people think (nitrates converted to nitrogen gas). Basically, what we see is nitrate being converted by denitrifying bacteria into ammonium which is then "recycled" once again through the nitrogen cycle. I posted a diagram below I drew up going by the info I gathered on the nitrogen cycle and the processes involved. Some denitrification takes place where nitrates are converted into nitrogen gas, but a lot of what we have happening seems to be nitrates converted to ammonium and recycled. What isn't converted is used up by plants/algae for growth, removed via water changes etc. I'll have to get Mojo in here to elaborate a bit on it if I screwed it up some, but this "denitrification" process takes place in both deep sand beds and liverock in anaerobic regions which are regions void of oxygen none of which are found in canister filters.

 

[NC2WA]

Some of this discussion is covered in the following article:

Reef Frontiers - Cycling and recycling your tank

 

[steven11]

That's the same cave troll that I talked to krish. He makes me want to take my tank down every time I talk to him. He have the same effect on you?

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[Krish]

That's the same cave troll that I talked to krish. He makes me want to take my tank down every time I talk to him. He have the same effect on you?

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No man...He's teaching me the ropes