Ideal Reef water temperature?

[chend2]

Well that's why I made the statement. I think the concern here fluctuation not outer boundaries. Yes, do not let your water reach 95 degrees, your tank wont like that. But I think it is sound to allow your tank to move from 76-86 degrees throughout the day. Poor Sid make sure you put sunscreen on your tank.

 

[DonW]

Anyone, including myself ( i was born and raised in hawaii), that has swam through a reef will find the water is almost 84 degrees even in the winter.

Thats an apple to oranges comparison. As far as I know all the reefs have been affected by global warming and are hotter than optimal temperatures thus why they are dieing. The decline of reefs alone shows us that we should not be running aquariums as hot as "real" reefs.
Also we have a closed system with very little flow and turn over. I think Dana Riddle put it best when he compared taking your bodies temperature by simply waving a thermometer in the air. This is what we are doing on our closed system. Single point light sources and lack of flow in a sense turn corals into a heat sinks the coral temp rises faster and higher than the actual ambient water temps.

Don

 

[Scooterman]

That would be from this quote Don

I know what you have to be thinking… An article about temperature. For Pete's sake, reef aquaria have been popular for at least 20 years in the U.S., and one would think we've got a handle on proper temperature values. Just keep the water temperature between 70° F and 80° F, right?
Now, imagine this scenario: One visits the doctor's office, and it is time to get your temperature taken. The nurse waves the thermometer in the air, and records the number. She has to be kidding - that's not representative of your temperature! But this is analogous, in some cases, to what we're doing when we simply make a water temperature measurement in an aquarium! Granted, the water temperature will be valid and truly represents the water at that particular spot and likely the temperature of most corals within the aquarium. However, there may be coral 'hot spots' if one is lighting the captive reef with high wattage lamps using pendent fixtures (especially those pendents made of aluminum and/or with a polished internal reflective surface). Not surprisingly, those corals most affected will be those directly under and closest to the lamp and they can be much warmer than the ambient water temperature indicates

I have the link above for anyone to read if interested.

 

[chend2]

I would disagree with you Don. Yes, there is global warming, but your suggestion that reefs have increased in temp some 6-7 degrees is empirically unsound. Furthermore, concerning the closed system, that also lacks merit based on logical knowledge. We are not debating the fact that a constant water temperature reflects a real reef, rather whether swings in temp make organisms more tolerant to those fluctuating temperatures in case of an accident. With the in mind, the empirical data seems not to lean towards homeostasis of a closed system such as your body example, but rather a better example would be plants grown in a constant temperature greenhouse are less tolerant and hardy compared to those cultured outdoors.

 

[DonW]

I would disagree with you Don. Yes, there is global warming, but your suggestion that reefs have increased in temp some 6-7 degrees is empirically unsound. Furthermore, concerning the closed system, that also lacks merit based on logical knowledge. We are not debating the fact that a constant water temperature reflects a real reef, rather whether swings in temp make organisms more tolerant to those fluctuating temperatures in case of an accident. With the in mind, the empirical data seems not to lean towards homeostasis of a closed system such as your body example, but rather a better example would be plants grown in a constant temperature greenhouse are less tolerant and hardy compared to those cultured outdoors.

Its already been proven that in a closed system our corals become more or less a heat sink and take on internal temps much faster than in the wild.
Its already been proven that temp increases and or swings of 2F are a contributing factor to coral bleaching. How could this be any different in a closed system. Again comparing plants and humans to reefs just does not compute. We see what is happening in nature and we attempt to emulate it in a reef aquarium, this makes no sense what so ever. What we are seeing is the decline of a eco system and we are emulatuing that same decline.
Id be more inclined to believe some real data from 100 plus years ago rather than today. We are on the rise of .5F per decade so does this mean 10 years from now we should be running our tanks at 75 to 85 or 20 years from now 80 to 90 and so on.

Don

 

[chend2]

.5F degrees is different from 5 degrees, which is what you based your computation. Also, coral bleaching arises from a multitude of different reasons, the reason of temperature, which you are citing, arises at 30 degrees Celsius. God forbid a tank gets that hot. http://www.marinebiology.org/coralbleaching.htm (Fact Cite) Also I am not comparing plants to corals. I am comparing organisms to organisms and there is no doubt that "organisms" become stronger and more tolerant to negative variables when exposed to them in a safe fashion like; vaccines, bacteria, viruses, temperature, and predation. I am not stating that you cannot boil a coral, I am suggesting 78 degrees is a arbitrary temperature that was pulled out of the tropical aquarium air when we all begun this hobby and that maintaining that temp within 1 degree at all times may be indicative of an adherence to a improperly vetted theory. Also, the claim we should emulate a natural reef has been the basis of every reef salt company and supplement company for the last decade, do say that it " makes no sense whatsoever" invalidates your own claim considering that the same industry set the arbitrary standard of 78 degrees. Which in function was merely a spin off of the norm set for tropical freshwater fish, where the water is cooler. Also where did the claim that you should increase water temp 5 degrees every ten years come from? I don't mean to abase you, I hope to draw scientific and useful discussion.

 

[sandollar]

Doesn't ich have a close association with rapid temperature fluctuations? Anyways, I think those that want to allow their tanks temperature to fluctuate all the time should do so freely. It's your tank. Just don't get fooled by the misconception that because in your country it's 90F in the day and 40F at night that the water in the ocean is exactly the same temperature during these times, so you can allow the same to happen in your tank. It does not work that way. It takes a very long time for such a huge body of water to change temperature and doesn't occur in a split second. It takes months. How do I know this? Because I live in the ocean on the sandbed and it's never been that way here. This is why larger tanks are more stable than smaller. The smaller the body of water, the less stable it is. There is no harm in a tank fluctuating a few degrees in any given day once it doesn't occur within minutes which is the reason for temperature controllers, heaters and chillers.

 

[DonW]

.5F degrees is different from 5 degrees, which is what you based your computation. Also, coral bleaching arises from a multitude of different reasons, the reason of temperature, which you are citing, arises at 30 degrees Celsius. God forbid a tank gets that hot. http://www.marinebiology.org/coralbleaching.htm (Fact Cite) Also I am not comparing plants to corals. I am comparing organisms to organisms and there is no doubt that "organisms" become stronger and more tolerant to negative variables when exposed to them in a safe fashion like; vaccines, bacteria, viruses, temperature, and predation. I am not stating that you cannot boil a coral, I am suggesting 78 degrees is a arbitrary temperature that was pulled out of the tropical aquarium air when we all begun this hobby and that maintaining that temp within 1 degree at all times may be indicative of an adherence to a improperly vetted theory. Also, the claim we should emulate a natural reef has been the basis of every reef salt company and supplement company for the last decade, do say that it " makes no sense whatsoever" invalidates your own claim considering that the same industry set the arbitrary standard of 78 degrees. Which in function was merely a spin off of the norm set for tropical freshwater fish, where the water is cooler. Also where did the claim that you should increase water temp 5 degrees every ten years come from? I don't mean to abase you, I hope to draw scientific and useful discussion.

Just me screwing the pooch trying to talk reefs and work at the same time. Let me see it I can word a valid point.
Using my tank as an example: At 8am my water temp is 78F. @ 12 noon its 80/81. At 8am coral skeleton temp is 78F @ noon it 83F directly under 250w mh at the bottom of the tank 1/4" under the sand bed.
By me allowing this fast swing of 2 degrees Im increasing coral temp by 5 degrees in 4 hours. This happens due to the closed system and a single point light source. I added fans now the water temp swing is only .5 and the coral swing is 2 still higher than I would like to see in a 4 hour period.
We know that with global warming when we see a temp change like this in the wild we have a bleaching problem. I'm not saying its not ok to vary the temp but I am saying that fast changes are a stressor. In the wild we dont see a 5 degree temp shift in 4 hours, it happens over larger periods of time. When we do see 2 degree shifts in the wild like peak hot hours the corals begin to have bleaching problems.
Comparing a closed reef to the wild poses different questions. Single point light sources alone totally screw with the theory that we dont need to maintain closed reef temps.

Does that make more sense?

Don

 

[returnofsid]

Just don't get fooled by the misconception that because in your country it's 90F in the day and 40F at night that the water in the ocean is exactly the same temperature during these times, so you can allow the same to happen in your tank. It does not work that way.

I don't think there's a single one of us that believes we can allow our tanks to fluctuate 50 degrees...lol. I think we're all competent enough to know "It does not work that way."

Also, IMO, there's a myth floating around that Ich is present in every tank and it only takes certain "stressors" such as temp fluctuation, to trigger an outbreak. I believe that myth has been totally debunked by now and most would agree that Ich is NOT ever present in our tanks.

 

[chend2]

Yes, I agree. Although I deeply hope no one believes that land and water temperatures are whatsoever similar. I suggest trying it for yourself, but I would suggest serious consideration into logical conclusions of what does and does not happen in a tank.

 

[chend2]

That is intriguing Don, I guess my next step will be to stick a thermometer into my coral to validate your claim. Hmm, I nominate my Bonsai.

 

[DonW]

Its already been validated. This article is where I got the idea to use this temp set-up.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/2/aafeature2/view

Of course eveyones going to get something a little different based on their own tank but you can get the point.

Don

 

[chris&barb]

Maybe it's because half of the marine life anyone has in their tanks were born and raised in aquariums and didn't come directly from the ocean so they try to stick within the range of temperature we call "proper" or the norm.

Half?:lol: not even close. A fraction of what we keep is captive raised. Even if everything in your tank is captive raised what makes you think that a few years in an aquarium will affect the evolutionary adaptations that these animals have developed?

People have been keeping their tanks within a certain range and try their best to keep the temp stable there.

Why? Wild reefs aren't like this, Why should we keep our tanks like this? Could it be because, a long long time ago someone said we should and everyone keeps repeating it?

I find it hard to believe anyone here keeps their temperature at 90F

Now your just trying to twist my words. I said that in the wild temps can at time reach 90 but since the corals are accustomed to swings they can handle it for short periods of time.

I'm not suggesting that anyone crank up their heaters. What I am suggesting is that people stop worrying about one and two degree fluctuations and allow their temp to swing some because this IS what happens in the wild and (this is the scary part) It's good for your tank inhabitants

Dig through some of those links i posted. There are studies in there that show a higher disease resistance in animals that have these fluctuations. And these animals are better able to handle temperature extremes.

 

[chris&barb]

Not to be argumentative, but what 1 animal is being discussed? I do agree that our tanks are usually inhabited by animals from different climates, however, for the most part, they're all from Tropical Reef climates.

We aren't (at least im not) talking about just one animal. But we are talking about tropical reef animals in general. And in general they all come from relatively the same environments, and none of these environments consists of 78 to 80 degrees with no variation in temperature.

 

[chris&barb]

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=21

And this proves what? That people are keeping their tanks at an unnatural temp with no variation?

 

[sandollar]

I'm not suggesting that anyone crank up their heaters. What I am suggesting is that people stop worrying about one and two degree fluctuations and allow their temp to swing some

Exactly what has been said. 78F-83F is a 5 degree swing and not a problem. Even a bit more wouldn't be a problem. The point is which I think is being missed over and over is a swing shouldn't take place over a short period of time, but gradually. Yes, corals and fish are exposed to changes in temperature swings in the wild, but the ocean doesn't change temperature in a few mintues which I think people are missing. The question was asked what is the ideal temperature and we posted a range from 78-83F give or take a few degrees. Where is the issue? Because someone said try to keep things stable? What about salinity then? Should that fluctuate alot as wel??? I mean if it rains on a tidepool or water evaporates from a tidepool then the salinity will change? Should we just let our salinity go all over the place as well as temp and not worry? My opinion is you can't go wrong with stability. If you can keep temp and salinity stable, then where's the problem? Poeple have and are doing this today with great success. I say a better bet for arguments sake is why not do a poll again and see where everyone keeps their temperature at now which is the original question. I bet 99% of the people posting here's target temp will fall anywhere between 78F -83F give or take 1 or 2 degrees. And yes, they are successful. Everyone here who runs a chiller, heater, temperature controller are all concerned about their temperature in some way. Un-natural IMO, is a little glass box with marine life in it. Hardly nature by far.

 

[chris&barb]

Hmmm interesting results....although 199 votes out of the 24713 members on RF.....

I do agree, that until more research is done, these temps are probably what we should aim for. Also, I'm sure that A LOT of research has been done in the past. However, it's amazing what new research can teach us. It does seem that some of the links that have been posted in this thread are from very renowned hobbyists and professionals that just might lead us to believe that static temps or very small variations in tems aren't as critical as we've thought...and maybe aren't as healthy either. Just wondering if we've all been putting too much stress and there for spending money, on something that's not as critical as we've all thought. I see people that have much stricter temps and find it funny when they start talking about temps for their own tanks and have decimal points in their temps...lol. For example, I had one local reefer recently tell me that they keep their tank between 77 and 78.5. This is in a HUGE tank that incorporates a chiller the size of my entertainment center...lol. They also had a few 1000W MH lights though...6 or 8 I think.

My tank is doing great without running a chiller and allowing the temp to swing.

Here's a one year growth shot

and i also breed two species of clown fish from this system along with a breeding pair of flame angles and hippo tangs, not to mention the many clams i have that are doing just fine

 

[returnofsid]

Great shots and beautiful tanks!!

 

[8mycash]

mirical mud caused phosphates to show up in my 500 gal. Took months to figure out that was the cause.