Scooterman
Well-known member
Yea I agree, do some testing to get it the way yo want it, sorta what I meant earlier.
In Wall - going for it! - seeking your ideas/feedback/advice
- Thread starter class clown
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class clown
Well-known member
testing it out sounds good.. one issue though is that I'll have to commit to number of holes and placement of the holes within the next week - the tank shoudl be completed within a week and I'd like these precision drilled by Jason at CFI so they line up and have a nice even placement. If I try to do it on my own, knowing me, it'll look sloppy.
If i stick w/ my original design, I'd drill two holes big enough for 1" bulkhead up front in the bottom, and 2 more of this size in the lower back wall.
If I commit to my new design, I'd drill 4 smaller holes up front big enough for 3/4" bulkhead, and then 8 more on the back wall. There is no way to morph these two designs into one another b/c the size of the bulkheads. So I have to commit to one or the other at this point.
Both you and Duane strongly suggested I keep the origianl design w/ the oceans motions or get two seperate pumps to control each unit. I'm leaning towards the newest design however that is neither. I'd like to know in more detail why you feel the origianl design or doing two seperate pumps is superior to the newest design.
Or... split the pump return to feed the MBV and the OM completely seperate letting them both run full time. Then you would have ultimate control. You could choke the OM back and make the MBV work harder and let the OM disrupt the Barrell just a little or vise versa, running the OM harder to possibly please the corals more and run the barrell only enough to remove detritous. I dont think that using both of them is a bad idea altogether.
I just dont agree with running the OM off of half of the MBV. I feel that you are only utilizing half of each component if you do it that way.
Remember, I have my return split into two on my barracuda. Half to an OM and half to eight full time returns. In your case, you will likely need more turbulance to get flow in between the islands.
Scooterman
Well-known member
I don't believe the sump return should ever be considered used for flow other than a swirl type outlet, too much relies that this water gets back up & has a siphon break, your messing with water flowing from a remote location, too many variables for me to consider & still sleep well. Another JMO, I know it is done all the time, I just believe simple in some cases makes for reliable.
I agree!
One..as mentioned above, your not using each component to its most potential & actually hampering the OM half the time.
two..what happens if one fails or the other, regardless I know you could be down but now you have to design more block valves for on-line repairs, isolating each unit, more parts, more space used to add all of these parts, which leads to...
Three, more restrictions, even with spa-flex, it looks like a nightmare to plumb.
Four..You can separate them, add more designed flow, working together or independently in case one unit fails at any given point, regardless of the amount of plumbing required, this has to be a plus.
Five.. your attempting something new & untested, granted we all do at some point but this is a lot more complicated than average.
Six.. ( I may have this wrong on which or how many gets water at one given instance of time, if so scratch it) having one 5200gph pump rushing water out of one hole at any one,teo or even three isn't good, you will need to plan for this, even if you split it with loc-lines, that is too much at any one point, it may be too much even if the OM shot water from two points, even with 1" plumbing.
seven...two smaller pumps will still rush the same amount of water in a circular fashion but not all derived from one spot but potentially from opposing corners working together.
I don't like using 1" bh's if I can use more 3/4" & spread the flow out more, even if used to move water in a circular motion, I don't want a hard flow or hard push but rather a large volume of water that rushes in but is very wide, actually softer like a TUNZE with the big wide opening, moving a wider path of water rather than one tight focused stream, which BTW I do believe will spin your water very efficiently without obstacles & will most likely knock anything out of the way if too close.
ALL that I said I know you have certain ideas I'm not totally clear on, & Ultimately It it you that will have to deal & live with this tank. If you went with larger holes & worst case re-plumbed everything, you could either add reducers or you could mess with trying to drill out small holes into larger ones, the ladder is a worst case & very difficult to do even once more or less several times. I think regardless, you can work around the holes if you end up not liking the design, your general hole pattern isn't much different in either case but rather larger & smaller holes.
class clown
Well-known member
If both are on full time, how can you ever get enough inertia built to swirl the water like I'm after (mass water movement)? The MBV can be set at any period of time. The Oceans Motions unit changes ports every 15 seconds and this time period can't be adjusted. I've sat down w pen & paper here to trying to scetch it out to figure out how you can get this inertia, but I can't figure it out. can you? or are you going for just the most amount of chaitic water as possible?
also w/ two pumps I'd actually need more union ball valves than my design - i know it seems like less, but draw it out - you'd need more if you had two pumps.
also think about the additional drains for the two closed loops - more plumbing man.
I'm off to bed, but you bet I'll be waking up hoping you can describe or show me how to get the mass swirling water movement w/ this design.
also w/ two pumps I'd actually need more union ball valves than my design - i know it seems like less, but draw it out - you'd need more if you had two pumps.
also think about the additional drains for the two closed loops - more plumbing man.
I'm off to bed, but you bet I'll be waking up hoping you can describe or show me how to get the mass swirling water movement w/ this design.
Scooterman
Well-known member
Ok, let me draw this in CAD & take one last serious look, just have patient's, I'll see if I can get it done today but I'm very busy today, this is the best way for me to see what you want.
Scooterman
Well-known member
Ok, went back a long ways, lots of information in a short time
On post #619 you show a pic of your outlets & on post #613 you show your plumbing plan but I'm having a hard time putting the two together. In order to reach your goal we need to clearly understand your intentions.
You want to make your water move in a circular motion, like all of it to move in a clockwise direction, all the water top to bottom then you want to switch all of it in the opposite direction right? WHEW! You have to make the call on what you want, If this is what you want then I can do it, not sure how fast I can get it to switch though, I think that might take a little more than 15 seconds to switch! We need a clear plan on what you want, how it is done can be one of many ways, which way is best we need to look at the options, but from all of these threads, lots of things have been changed & switched, so another through recap will help focus on your goal.
On post #619 you show a pic of your outlets & on post #613 you show your plumbing plan but I'm having a hard time putting the two together. In order to reach your goal we need to clearly understand your intentions.
You want to make your water move in a circular motion, like all of it to move in a clockwise direction, all the water top to bottom then you want to switch all of it in the opposite direction right? WHEW! You have to make the call on what you want, If this is what you want then I can do it, not sure how fast I can get it to switch though, I think that might take a little more than 15 seconds to switch! We need a clear plan on what you want, how it is done can be one of many ways, which way is best we need to look at the options, but from all of these threads, lots of things have been changed & switched, so another through recap will help focus on your goal.
Scooterman
Well-known member
one question, why not, shoot water to 2 outlets on the OM in one direction, then switch to the other 2 outlets in the opposite direction. Keep the exact same hole pattern just make a header that connects one side to a common header on three BH's, then another header, then back to start the opposite direction. No need for the MBV!
You would have 4 headers. on the right two side by side, top, bottom & front together & the same for the other side. You would use one ball valve for each header for isolation. Less big plumbing part & plenty of flow, this would be cool, simple design, pain to plumb but very doable!
You would have 4 headers. on the right two side by side, top, bottom & front together & the same for the other side. You would use one ball valve for each header for isolation. Less big plumbing part & plenty of flow, this would be cool, simple design, pain to plumb but very doable!
Im not going to get into detail on my thoughts but will talk to you in person later. I think that between discussing ideas and looking in person at both of my tanks you will likely have your mind made up one way or another by the time you leave my house tonight.
class clown
Well-known member
I showed the design to Paul at Oceans Motions - here is what he said
"You need another two 3/4 outlets on the OM to handle the full capacity of the Hammerhead, there doesn't to be any other real issues but I am unsure how long the MB is going to last running on a much shorter cycle than it was designed for."
"You need another two 3/4 outlets on the OM to handle the full capacity of the Hammerhead, there doesn't to be any other real issues but I am unsure how long the MB is going to last running on a much shorter cycle than it was designed for."
Scooterman
Well-known member
I use 4 3/4 bh's off a 1 1/2" header with 4200gph, spins great across the 24" to the front & easily across the 4ft tank. So yea two more outlets on a header system would work well. I'm going to really like to see how this turns out LOL! The MBV has a 25% duty cycle.
http://haywardflowcontrol.com/products/SERIES_EAU.htm
I wrote them to get a better explanation of there reference to duty cycle because I have no information to base the timing of the cycle rate of it, other than the 5 seconds to actuate 180 degrees, will post reply.
http://haywardflowcontrol.com/products/SERIES_EAU.htm
I wrote them to get a better explanation of there reference to duty cycle because I have no information to base the timing of the cycle rate of it, other than the 5 seconds to actuate 180 degrees, will post reply.
class clown
Well-known member
Scooty wants a thorough recap of my goal, so here it goes:
Pretend you are Tom Cruze in the movie Mission Impossible and you're hovering from some cables above my tank looking downwards...My goal, as you were looking down, would be mass water movement spinning in a clockwise position followed by mass water movement in a counter clockwise position.
it'd look like so (suggestion: if you don't like Tom Cruze, then pretend you are a bird in the sky looking down - I'm not a huge fan):
(big thick arrows represent mass water movement spinning)
then 2, 5, 7, 10, 15 minutes later (don't know b/c would have to test the timing), the water direction would change to spin clockwise.
That's my overal goal just described to you.
Now - we get into the tactical stuff - How to accomplish right? my thoughts were that I could position the ports like shown in the drawing below. All greens woudl fire at the same time pushing the water clockwise, then the blues would all fire at the same pushing the water counter clockwise.
now, pretend you were looking through the front pane of the glass towards the back of the tank, here is another 3D view of how the ports look (Note: after speaking with Paul, I may need to add another set of 3/4" ports towards the top of the front window pane or change the front one's to 1"). In this drawing, the red indicates a port for my return which constantly pushes water at the top of the water column back towards the overflow sweeping detritus in that direction.
So.. everyone agreed that the OM is valuable b/c of the pulsating water action. Remember, straight out of the factory, these things make one full rotation every 60 seconds. Because of the size of my pump, I can only have a minimum of 2 ports open at any one time. This means I only have 15 second intervals between the time the ports are fully open and when they close. I think everyone will agree that 15 seconds isn't enough time to create the mass water movement I'm after (2 minutes = maybe, 5 minutes =probably, 10 minutes = definately, but 15 seconds no way, no how).
To encorporate the pulsating action of a OM, but still get the mass spinning water movement I'm after, the only design I could think of was to tie both the MBV and the OM together. I'll try to describe this design in further detail too here.
The main driver is the reeflo hammerhead, it pushes water to the MBV, when the MBV is switched to one side (let's just say the left for arguments sake), it pushes water to all of the green ports I showed you earlier in the two diagrams above. When the MBV is switched to the right side (2, 5, 10 minutes later- whatever) however, it then goes to the OM unit which fires a blue front and a blue rear port every 15 seconds which still creates the mass water movement spinning, but also allows allows for some pulsating action.
Here is a simple view more so to show you how the MBV and OM are arranged.
Now, i tried to draw the plumbing lines so you could see how all the plumbing would work, but this became very complex in 2d. so Instead of drawing all of the plumbing I essentially only show half of it here in an attempt to make it look less messy. To get the true effect, anytime you see a X2 in the picture below, consider that you'll have two of these lines.
Please let me know what questions you have specifically and I'll answer them
Pretend you are Tom Cruze in the movie Mission Impossible and you're hovering from some cables above my tank looking downwards
...My goal, as you were looking down, would be mass water movement spinning in a clockwise position followed by mass water movement in a counter clockwise position. it'd look like so (suggestion: if you don't like Tom Cruze, then pretend you are a bird in the sky looking down - I'm not a huge fan):
(big thick arrows represent mass water movement spinning)
then 2, 5, 7, 10, 15 minutes later (don't know b/c would have to test the timing), the water direction would change to spin clockwise.
That's my overal goal just described to you.
Now - we get into the tactical stuff - How to accomplish right? my thoughts were that I could position the ports like shown in the drawing below. All greens woudl fire at the same time pushing the water clockwise, then the blues would all fire at the same pushing the water counter clockwise.
now, pretend you were looking through the front pane of the glass towards the back of the tank, here is another 3D view of how the ports look (Note: after speaking with Paul, I may need to add another set of 3/4" ports towards the top of the front window pane or change the front one's to 1"). In this drawing, the red indicates a port for my return which constantly pushes water at the top of the water column back towards the overflow sweeping detritus in that direction.
So.. everyone agreed that the OM is valuable b/c of the pulsating water action. Remember, straight out of the factory, these things make one full rotation every 60 seconds. Because of the size of my pump, I can only have a minimum of 2 ports open at any one time. This means I only have 15 second intervals between the time the ports are fully open and when they close. I think everyone will agree that 15 seconds isn't enough time to create the mass water movement I'm after (2 minutes = maybe, 5 minutes =probably, 10 minutes = definately, but 15 seconds no way, no how).
To encorporate the pulsating action of a OM, but still get the mass spinning water movement I'm after, the only design I could think of was to tie both the MBV and the OM together. I'll try to describe this design in further detail too here.
The main driver is the reeflo hammerhead, it pushes water to the MBV, when the MBV is switched to one side (let's just say the left for arguments sake), it pushes water to all of the green ports I showed you earlier in the two diagrams above. When the MBV is switched to the right side (2, 5, 10 minutes later- whatever) however, it then goes to the OM unit which fires a blue front and a blue rear port every 15 seconds which still creates the mass water movement spinning, but also allows allows for some pulsating action.
Here is a simple view more so to show you how the MBV and OM are arranged.
Now, i tried to draw the plumbing lines so you could see how all the plumbing would work, but this became very complex in 2d. so Instead of drawing all of the plumbing I essentially only show half of it here in an attempt to make it look less messy. To get the true effect, anytime you see a X2 in the picture below, consider that you'll have two of these lines.
Please let me know what questions you have specifically and I'll answer them
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class clown
Well-known member
one question, why not, shoot water to 2 outlets on the OM in one direction, then switch to the other 2 outlets in the opposite direction. Keep the exact same hole pattern just make a header that connects one side to a common header on three BH's, then another header, then back to start the opposite direction. No need for the MBV!
You would have 4 headers. on the right two side by side, top, bottom & front together & the same for the other side. You would use one ball valve for each header for isolation. Less big plumbing part & plenty of flow, this would be cool, simple design, pain to plumb but very doable!
This would be great if we could get the OM to slow down, but you're talking about 15 second intervals here in which we'd be changing direcitons - just not enought to get much of any inertia going.
class clown
Well-known member
Scooterman
Well-known member
Thanks for the recap, I think I'm on the right page
one vote MBV LOL
One question, why not eliminate the OM & just go with the MBV, your basically switching from one side to the next anyways? I think you can actually rotate the valve sooner that I originally thought but will get manufacturer information first hand to be sure, will post that when they replay.
one vote MBV LOL
One question, why not eliminate the OM & just go with the MBV, your basically switching from one side to the next anyways? I think you can actually rotate the valve sooner that I originally thought but will get manufacturer information first hand to be sure, will post that when they replay.
Scooterman
Well-known member
one vote OM!
Not quite, you would be causing catioc flow half the time & start a swirl the other half, never having water moving in one constant direction constantly but If you need more time then just put the unit with a timer to switch on & off completely every whatever, no modding necessary.
class clown
Well-known member
I'm confused - in the post above, you said "one vote MBV" and in this one, you say "one vote OM" ? I assume this was a joke?
oh.. and to clarify, it would be more like "organized chaotic" flow - vs. chaotic flow. See all of the valves are positioned so they are pushing water in the same direction after they come through the OM. the OM drum rotates slowly, so every 15 seconds, you get two ports that are fully opened up. But at at 3.75 seconds after this point, you'd have two ports opened 25% and 2 at 75%, and at 7.5 seconds later all ports would be 50% opened. they are all working on spinning the water in the same direction, they just come fully open at different times.
class clown
Well-known member
Hey Scooty - Can you also ask them about the lifespan of these things. I know they are commercial duty, but they are probably not meant to actuate 180 degrees every 5, 10 or 15 minutes 24 hrs a day for years and years are they? I know Paul at OM has certainly challenged their longevity. What would they expect the lifespan to be if I had it on a time schedule like this?
Scooterman
Well-known member
Yea the votes was either/ or scenarios!
