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I understand your rationality, and you're right for the most part. The rock I'm sure is full of bacteria, and probably enough to handle your current bio-load since most likely it already had been (I'll explain below). There are two problems you face however, and it's those issues we should focus on. The first is the fact that even though the tank had been setup for over a year, it still wasn't mature. If it were mature you wouldn't see the nitrate spiking like that. This could mean they had something in the tank that was acting as a biological filter besides the rock. This could've even been some filter floss that wasn't regularly cleaned. In this case you have an incomplete cycle, and you'll have to wait for the bacteria to slowly build-up inside the rock to consume nitrates. This may take some time though, since the cured rock may be somewhat clogged on the inside. This often happens in tanks with a large organic waste problem. Your base rock would be easier in that case, but it might have to grow nitrifying bacteria first. Confused yet? :) Don't worry; it all makes less-then-perfect sense once you get the hang of it. Cooking the cured rock (you don't actually have to cook it) would free up a lot of the clogged mess inside.

The second issue, which I almost forgot after that ramble, is future stocking. When your tank has been setup and your rock is fully cycled, then adding fish and coral and whatever else doesn't pose a problem; unless you do too much. In your case you should wait several weeks to give your rock a chance to fully cycle. In the meantime your fish and even your snails should be fine; provided of course that you keep nitrates at a decent level.

On that note... The test kits and some books usually say under 25 is fine, and it's true for almost all freshwater and most saltwater fish. In freshwater, Discus are rather sensitive though, and in saltwater there are several common fish that don't handle anything above 10ppm very well. Inverts for the most part don't tolerate nitrates very well at all, and 25ppm is getting too high for a lot of the more sensitive species. In general you should keep any reef tank under 10ppm.

In closing, don't get bogged down too much about cycling, it's something that in the long run is much easier than the science makes it seem. Patience is the key, and everyone on these boards know you have a lot of that.

Clayton
 
Way to go Clayton you've explained everythin' so well that i dont have anythin to say now..... great...... so now what the heck are we goin to do the rest of the night? LoL

Do you know anythin about ASM skimmers?
 
I've never had an ASM. Honestly I've never actually bought a skimmer in my life. When I got into saltwater about 14 years ago I made my first attempt at making one; and the two-foot skimmer turned out so well I made a six-foot giant just like it. The monster skimmer was run by a piston air pump and was setup on a 50 gallon tank, lol. The first time I turned the pump on it blew saltwater straight out the top. Today I either use an altered version of my original plan or an altered euroreef-type design. In fact my 5 gallon nano has a two-foot skimmer on it right now. This of course nearly doubles the water capacity of the system. I love overkill if you hadn't already noticed.

So are you naturally a night person, or is it just the job?

Clayton
 
I was a night owl before i got married, but now its just the job. I work from 11pm to 7am, RF is all i do.

Im tryin to figure out what to do with my sump, since its not mod'd with baffles and my iwaki is to fast for the overflow (does have ball valves) Im scared because the ASM is suppose to need 10in of water and i dont know if i can get that perfect balance in my sump?
 
I would definitely turn the pump down if it's too fast for your overflow. Be careful when increasing the depth of water in your sump though. When you lose power or the pump is turned off your tank will keep draining some unless you stop the overflow. It's best to keep enough room in the sump to allow for the extra water.

Have you already bought the skimmer? How tall is the sump?

Clayton
 
I bought the skimmer, its on the way, its definatly the one i want, i have done lots of research on the G3, and the sump is roughly 12in tall
 
Wow, I see your dilemma. That doesn't leave much room when the skimmer needs 10".

The only good solution unfortunately might be another sump; unless someone else has a suggestion. There's nothing like having a sump that fully serves its purpose. If you decide to get a different one (or make one) and need a temporary sump you can go ghetto and use a large Rubbermaid tub. Attractive in a bedroom I might add, lol

Clayton
 
Jiddy said:
I just wanted two bigen's to eat that crappy algae. I see now that coralline algae is startin to sprout up in some places, thats pretty sweet! Hopefully this weekend the flow and sump will be set up....

Can anyone help me out on the sump situation, its a little grey for me, plus my ASM Skimmer is on the way, how much water do they have to be submerged in

Jiddy
Dude, think you have algae problems now? LOL wait till your base rocks all turn brown for a few weeks lol! Algae is some of the first life to grow on rocks, then it will slowly go through process & cycling until your boi-load can keep up, that is all good. You do need fish poop to feed what you have there so the fishes you have will help keep micro organisms alive and healthy so they can multiply :D
Ok you said something about your sump being 12" high right? That is a great pump but you may not need such a large pump just to circulate water from the sump area, maybe a mag 9 or 12 would work better, & use the other pump on a CL maybe? You can use a ball valve to reduce flow but you don't want to reduce it to the point that your overloading the pump, this makes more heat, wears the pump out too soon and is a waste. To figure out your flow to and from the sump lets look at what you have plumbed, size of the piping you already have in place and the size or rate your overflow box is rated,size of the sump, are you going to put some dividers in there better to do it now first, you can get some sheets of plexi glass at your local glass shop for the three baffles needed unless your planning a supped up sump they are only a few bucks & no does LOL!
 
Like i stated before this was a Amiracle sump that had two chambers for bioBalls so they have plastic "shelves" in there so slidin acrylic sheets in there isnt that easy, ill post some pics of it later today and you can devise a master plan from there Scooter! LoL, or we can have Chuck change the thread name to somethin' else and we can trick The MOJO into comin back to the circus to help us out! LoL

-Jidzilla
 
Scooterman said:
Dude, think you have algae problems now? LOL wait till your base rocks all turn brown for a few weeks lol!

Dude, i told you i got 2 snails today? :lol: :lol: :lol: I dont have to worry about algae now :lol: :lol: :lol:

-JK-
 
Yea post a few pics we can do it, ever thought about a saw and cutting out what you don't need? lol sounds funny but you can redesign what you have IF necessary, you may be good to go as. The problem I see with these pe-made sumps is you can't always get the flow desired through them, or place your equipment in there like you want, I paid a ton for a berlin sump new & it was well made but junk by my needs lol
 
how much LR did you put in there & how much base do you have? excuse me, for not reading every post I try but my eyes cross? Oh yea what type of base do you have or where you get it?
 
WHAT SCOOTY? You havent read every single post? Obviously we arent as close as i thought. Im hurt now, i dont know if i can continue to type.... But anyways, I got 100lbs maybe a little less of LR from the 65, and i have about 280lbs of base rock in the tank. The BR came from two places (mario AKA OceanReef who was A++) and (PS-who was BS) but the rock is that reefRock stuff, good stuff, but it depends on what box you get, cuz the PS stuff was all small, i POSTED A PIC of it, but you wouldnt know.... Oh and i just bought a 2.6 lb rock from the LFS for coralline, so i have more!
 
No actually I try to read as much as I can & I did see all of your pics. That is more LR than I thought, I'm sure your tank will settle quite a bit but the base will still take time, get your sump flowing & your skimmer when you get it, you will be fine. Damsels dude are some tuff fish, I wish you luck on thoes but you do have a good set.
 
clayswim said:
In general you should keep any reef tank under 10ppm.

I disagree with this statement. IMO, reef tanks should be kept under 2ppm nitrate. Undetectable levels are what should be strived for. A tank that is set up right, maintained properly, and not overstocked will have no problem maintaining undetectable nitrate levels. After all, the ocean doesn't have detectable nitrates, and I think we should strive for NSW condistions as much as possible. It is the corals, for the most part, that are more sensitive to nitrates. Besides that, algae likes them too but PO4, I believe, is what is limiting.

I think FO tanks should be kept below 10ppm but still lower if possible.
 
Jiddy, a dremel is probably your best bet to get those sump walls out. Then sand the sides where the walls were as much as you can. You will still, however, end up with ruff areas where the walls were. I did this with one of my current sumps to turn a refugium into a skimmer return with baffles to baffle the water from the skimmer before it goes through the main sump baffles.

Another option is a hammer, but don't blame me if something goes wrong. :) I'm actually being serious on this. I did it with a 15 gallon wet/dry to remove the bio-ball wall and the bio-ball shelf. It took the wall and shelf off very clean and you can't even tell where they originally were. I wouldn't do this if your sump walls are flimsy as this could cause them to crack. But your sump has a brace around the top so I'm guessing it is pretty solid.
 
lol, I figured someone would say something about undetectable nitrates. Is there anything wrong with the statement "nitrates should be kept under 10"? Absolutely not, because they should be. To disagree with my statement would suggest you like them higher.

Should sensitive inverts have nitrates "a lot" lower than 10? Sure they should. Should fish? Maybe, maybe not. The fact is that most saltwater fish do fine with levels between 10 and 20. Only the more delicate species will actually present symptoms at those levels. Yes it's true that we should strive for perfect water that completely duplicates the conditions in the oceans; unfortunately that's just not possible. What we have to do is find a balance that does work, something that both we and our animals can live with. In a properly setup and completely mature system it's true that nitrates should read zero on our less-than-perfect test kits, but it's still true that you absolutely should keep them under 10. That was my point. To say that our critters can't live in nitrates because the ocean is without them just isn't true. Salmon and Trout can handle massive levels of nitrites in saltwater, and massive levels of nitrates in freshwater. They won't likely run into detectable levels of either in the wild; except perhaps our lovely Puget Sound that is.

Clayton
 
Damsels can live in boiling water LOL but a large majority of fishes can't handle that much unless they grown into it slowly.
 
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