wrightme43
Well-known member
How much? I have kent it seems to work great. If rowakalk is better and within reason I may try it. I only have enough left for a month at most. Steve
Kalkwasser Rip Off
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reefer
Well-known member
see artcle in reefkeeping magazine.
The R/C Man
Well-known member
Well from what I understand we have been unable to match mother natures high quality water in our reefs. So if we add less than the highest quality kalkwasser to save a couple bucks and don't use RO/DI water and so on our water quality is just getting worse. Over time what effects will that have as the particulates saturate your sand bed. Is this a possible cause of a crash? IMO use the good stuff. I don't have much money but I always shell it out when it come to the tank...
ROWAUSA said:
Easy cowboy. It is not so simple.
A lot of the statements like: the analytical grade is better, is cleaner, it is better for our tanks are based on a lot of unproven assumptions. You are all assuming that the manufacturers are actually putting in the container what they claim to be putting there. Nobody has ever taken a sample of each and analyzed them to show independently what they actually have in them. So, until then, make your assumption based statements (hearsay until proven otherwise) with that in mind and the rest of us will take them with a grain of salt.
Anyone that works in the chemistry or chemical/pharmaceutical industry will tell you that analytical grade stuff goes through a lot of processing, quality control, testing, and a lot of costs. Let me emphasize the word costs here. So, when you see a $8-12/ LB container of kalk advertising analytical grade chemicals ask yourself the simple questions.
This is not to bash any one manufacturer in particular, but the reality remains that they all have significant amounts of settling that must be removed if used in a reactor. I have personally used more than 5 different types including Mrs. Wages pickling lime with a magnetic stirrer based reactor and can tell you that every single one of them had a significant amount of crude attached to the stirrer bar. Not one more than the other really. They all also had a significant amount of settling that has to be removed too.
So, which one is better and should be the ultimate kalk or chemical to use? That is for you to decide until there is enough independent data to shows us what each has. Telling someone in this hobby what is best is like telling someone which is the best religion.
The R/C Man
Well-known member
dgasmd,
I agree mostly.....
Notice I never mentioned a brand... The best product available is defininately subjective without the tests to back it up. As mentioned somewhere else in the post, "if we can injest a product it should be ok for our tank" I definitaly disagree with. Which leads me to the picking lime. Do you have any idea how many "undesirables" that manufactures are "allowed" to have in food products? Pestacides, preservatives, bug/animal parts and so on. So is it really safe for our fragile ecosystems? Going back to water quality in the ocean compaired to our tanks, why do you think Corals brought in from the ocean are harder to aclimate and keep alive in our tanks compaired to tank raised corals. Water quality plain and simple.... I have read post on RC of people wanting to use deicer as a calcium supliment in there tanks. What are they thinking? Short term this may be ok but what about the long run? People can smoke cigarettes for years without seeing any negative effects but what you can't see is that it is slowly killing them. Some people do this to their tanks unknowingly through the lack of filtration or water changes as amonia and or nitrates build up over time in the tank. By adding less than the purest forms of required additives to our tanks could we be slowly killing them?
Maybe the above mentioned is on the extreme side but as a fairly new and rapidly changing hobby we as hobbiest need to strive to improve water quality to maintain our inhabitants in optimal conditions. Unfortunately this costs money. I always research products before I add them to my tank. Oh, that reminds me.... I am a firm believer of only adding the most nesessary elements to maintain our tanks.....
Let the bashing begin....
I agree mostly.....
Notice I never mentioned a brand... The best product available is defininately subjective without the tests to back it up. As mentioned somewhere else in the post, "if we can injest a product it should be ok for our tank" I definitaly disagree with. Which leads me to the picking lime. Do you have any idea how many "undesirables" that manufactures are "allowed" to have in food products? Pestacides, preservatives, bug/animal parts and so on. So is it really safe for our fragile ecosystems? Going back to water quality in the ocean compaired to our tanks, why do you think Corals brought in from the ocean are harder to aclimate and keep alive in our tanks compaired to tank raised corals. Water quality plain and simple.... I have read post on RC of people wanting to use deicer as a calcium supliment in there tanks. What are they thinking? Short term this may be ok but what about the long run? People can smoke cigarettes for years without seeing any negative effects but what you can't see is that it is slowly killing them. Some people do this to their tanks unknowingly through the lack of filtration or water changes as amonia and or nitrates build up over time in the tank. By adding less than the purest forms of required additives to our tanks could we be slowly killing them?
Maybe the above mentioned is on the extreme side but as a fairly new and rapidly changing hobby we as hobbiest need to strive to improve water quality to maintain our inhabitants in optimal conditions. Unfortunately this costs money. I always research products before I add them to my tank. Oh, that reminds me.... I am a firm believer of only adding the most nesessary elements to maintain our tanks.....
Let the bashing begin....
wrightme43
Well-known member
I have to say, I have started using RowaKalk, and I am very happy with it. It dissolves very easily, I found no residue in my Kalk dripper, (yet) I have to say FOR ME only that the knowledge that it is analytical grade puts one less thing on my list of worries about my tank. I look at it like this. Tapwater is food grade, we use rodi. Fresh shrimp are food grade, we soak them in rodi. We go for purity and then save 14$ to add something that turns into the skeleton of our coral (the most expensive investment in most tanks) For me the insurance of quality aquarim grade supplies, is worth the extra cost. Now these are only my opinions, and you should do what you feel is right for your tank. I get to do what I think is right for mine. LOL Everybody have a good day. On a side note, this thread could and probley would of started less disagreement had it been (Is Kalkwasser a rip off?) insted of (Kalkwasser Rip Off). See note about my opinions. LOL Like Curt says, being nice is free, pause before hitting enter. Steve
reedman
Well-known member
Greg,
I could take the other side of the fence though and say that there is no evidence that there are any negative long term effects from using non-aquarium products in the tank. I use baking soda/washing soda mix for my Alk supplement. I use Mrs. Wages for Kalk. I think my tank looks pretty good. I know there are a lot of people using this method and to make a blanket statement that there may be negative effects long term is a bit worrisome to me. How do we know there are no long term effects from the highest purity items. High purity cocain is much more dangerous than low grade. High concentration pesticides do a lot more damage a lot faster than diluted ones. Just some things to think about. People have been using Mrs. Wages for quite some time without any proven negative effects (outside of the residue which does not go into the tank...and there are residues with some of the name brand products too). I think there are many schools of thought on this and we need to state our observations until someone takes it into the lab and does a controlled experiment. For that matter, there are people rushing to their vet to get a dog heart medication to put into their tank to erradicate a bug that we really don't understand. I think pickling lime is the least of our worries.
Bottom line for me is that I don't think the big brand manufacturers are trying to rip us off. They are producing what they view as a superior product for our aquariums. From previous data and observations they feel that a more refined product will introduce less undesireables into our tanks and give us better results. Whether this is worth paying 50% or more over the cost of pickling lime is your call. I don't see the need for my tank, but I haven't spent thousands on the corals either. I grow from frags. I would rather spend my money on better flow than on a higher purity Kalk that I am not possitive provides noticeable gains (or the oposite is that I am not convinced that pikling lime doesn't do the same thing without negative effects beyond what the brand names would do).
Think about what you are putting in. Don't knock a business for doing business. They are in business to make money while providing a product that they feel is of benefit to you. If they priced a higher purity product as low a Mrs. Wages they'd lose money and go out of business.
I could take the other side of the fence though and say that there is no evidence that there are any negative long term effects from using non-aquarium products in the tank. I use baking soda/washing soda mix for my Alk supplement. I use Mrs. Wages for Kalk. I think my tank looks pretty good. I know there are a lot of people using this method and to make a blanket statement that there may be negative effects long term is a bit worrisome to me. How do we know there are no long term effects from the highest purity items. High purity cocain is much more dangerous than low grade. High concentration pesticides do a lot more damage a lot faster than diluted ones. Just some things to think about. People have been using Mrs. Wages for quite some time without any proven negative effects (outside of the residue which does not go into the tank...and there are residues with some of the name brand products too). I think there are many schools of thought on this and we need to state our observations until someone takes it into the lab and does a controlled experiment. For that matter, there are people rushing to their vet to get a dog heart medication to put into their tank to erradicate a bug that we really don't understand. I think pickling lime is the least of our worries.
Bottom line for me is that I don't think the big brand manufacturers are trying to rip us off. They are producing what they view as a superior product for our aquariums. From previous data and observations they feel that a more refined product will introduce less undesireables into our tanks and give us better results. Whether this is worth paying 50% or more over the cost of pickling lime is your call. I don't see the need for my tank, but I haven't spent thousands on the corals either. I grow from frags. I would rather spend my money on better flow than on a higher purity Kalk that I am not possitive provides noticeable gains (or the oposite is that I am not convinced that pikling lime doesn't do the same thing without negative effects beyond what the brand names would do).
Think about what you are putting in. Don't knock a business for doing business. They are in business to make money while providing a product that they feel is of benefit to you. If they priced a higher purity product as low a Mrs. Wages they'd lose money and go out of business.
snobanker
Well-known member
I really don't know anything about these products. But just in basic consumer products anything that is labeled as being specifically for a certain use/hobby/occupation always seems to cost a lot more than the same product intended for some more common use. Just my 2c's....besides I'm a cynical non-trusting type anyway
DonW
R.I.P.
The R/C Man said:dgasmd,
I have read post on RC of people wanting to use deicer as a calcium supliment in there tanks. What are they thinking?
Its Peledow and according to Dow it only contains exactly what is printed on their msds. Which would make it just as safe as anything you can buy at the LFS.
Don
fishermann
Well-known member
Isn't Dow the Co. that had some problems a few years back overseas with a plant that was supposed to be safe? Food for thought.
fishermann said:
And Kellogs is the company that made itself even more famous for clarifying that there is a certain amount of rat poop allowed by the FDA in foods.
I did not intend my reply to attack any one particular manufacturer, so please don't read it that way. I think reedman has an incredibly good point here too in:
I could take the other side of the fence though and say that there is no evidence that there are any negative long term effects from using non-aquarium products in the tank. I use baking soda/washing soda mix for my Alk supplement. I use Mrs. Wages for Kalk. I think my tank looks pretty good. I know there are a lot of people using this method and to make a blanket statement that there may be negative effects long term is a bit worrisome to me. How do we know there are no long term effects from the highest purity items.
Just because our common sense tells us that if it is not in their natural environment, then it must be bad for them it may not hold. Cows did not have pellet foods in their natural environment before man put them in a coral and they do better now. Fish in your tank don't eat flake foods in the sea and they do well with it. Fish have lots of predators and competition in their natural environment in the sea and not in our tanks. However, they are known to live much longer in a captive environment than in the sea.
Many good points and all can be flipped on both directions.
DonW
R.I.P.
I think we need to do what works for the individual. I personaly dont like the grey stuff that Kent kalk leaves behind, Balls leave brown stuff and the warner marine leave nothing. My budget says I'm stuck with the brown from the balls. I just have to spend more time and effort to see that it doesnt make it in tank.
I use drizair for boosting up calcium. I found that with kent and seachem I get a algae bloom. With drizair I dont. Works for my tank and my budget.
Don
I use drizair for boosting up calcium. I found that with kent and seachem I get a algae bloom. With drizair I dont. Works for my tank and my budget.
Don
wrightme43
Well-known member
I am all for anything based on experince. If someone can show me two tanks Identical, except one has a bottle of tabasco sauce poured in everyday, and it has better coral growth I may try it. I surely dont think that people are trying to hurt thier fish or coral by using pickling lime. I just for my tank like to use kalk. What mojo posted about the mass of aluminum was pretty interesting on the first page of this thread. What do you all think about that? Is there a way to minimize that or remove it? I mean Iron can be removed with a magnet (works with kellogs corn flakes too, just not on the rat poop) LOL Most others a poly filter will absorb. It is my understanding that aluminum is bad news in a reef. Is this true? Just because someone does something different from me does not make either one of us wrong. Steve
reefer
Well-known member
I guess the title was a somewhat harsh. I believe from the research that I have done that the lime water that I use works for me. Yea everyone has there own opinion. I am one that looks for the best deal for what works for me. If you look at any of the research one manufacturer can not prove that there lime is really better others. I think that manufacturers and suppliers need to keep their opinions out of the threads because it is nothing but advertising of their product. Let's see what everyone else uses and what problems or successes they may have had with what they use. Isn't that what these groups are all about?
The R/C Man
Well-known member
Boy I enjoy stiring the pot a bit. It envokes a better response from the masses...
I think one of the best ways to help eliminate the heavier particals (metals) from entering our tanks would be through the use of a kalk reactor as opposed to dripping. This should help ensure most of the "bad" stuff remains at the bottom of the reactor.
I think one of the best ways to help eliminate the heavier particals (metals) from entering our tanks would be through the use of a kalk reactor as opposed to dripping. This should help ensure most of the "bad" stuff remains at the bottom of the reactor.
reedman
Well-known member
I complely agree with you Greg. I use a reactor to dose my Kalk and it works great. I think that if you were to dose via the slurry method you may want to use a high purity Kalk since all of it goes in (no settling). Great point and great thread. Let's keep the discussion going.
DonW
R.I.P.
Your going to get lots more in the tank with a reactor. If your top off activates while the stirrer is running or before it settles.
Don
Don
