Lee! Sick Purple Tang. Moses needs help!

[jill]

Hi Lee,

First thing is that one of my Heniochus died last week, I've attached a picture but its hard to see anything. "Gracie" the Heniochus had small white spots that I couldn't identify. By the time I got her into my hospital tank it was too late and she died the next morning. Too late for her but hopefully not too late for Moses, my Purple Tang. It doesn't look like Moses has the same thing as the Heniochus but I'm not sure.

Moses, is about 3 years old and is 5" in length.

Two weeks ago he developed a white splotch on his left side, behind his pectoral fin as well as a little on the right side. He also has some on the crown of his head. I hope you can see it on the pictures. His eyes become cloudy every few days and then are fine. The splotch does seem to be getting a little bigger every day.

I have witnessed him rubbing against a rock a few times.

He is eating well, normal respiration and he is as onery as ever. I am thinking it looks more like a fungus infection than anything else but of course don't know.

This has been going on for 2 weeks. I have tried to get him out of the tank into my hospital tank but it seems impossible. He is wiley and fast and has too many places to hide. I am afraid that stressing him out might be worse for him than leaving him in the tank. I just don't know.

I haven't introduced ANY thing alive to the tank in over 6 months. But, right before the fish got sick I replaced all of the plumbling which I know stressed them out.

My tank DT is 250 g with a 75 g refugium/sump. I have a SWC 250 skimmer.
It's a mixed reef with mostly SPS. I have Cardinal Shrimp and 8 other fish that seem fine. The tank is 2 years old.

My water parameters are measured with Salifert except for Nitrate for which I use Elos.

Nitrates 1
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
KH 11
Calcium 500
Mag 1600
pH 8.10
Salinity 52 ( sg 1.025 )

I feed frozen in the morning, Nori in the afternoon and pellet in the evening.

I have performed 60 gallon water changes 3 times over the past 2 weeks. I dosed the tank with KanaPlex twice but nothing seems to help.

My question are

What do you think my fish might have?
Is there anything I can do to save him?

Thank you Lee.

Jill

 

[NC2WA]

IMO, Gracie had two things going on. First was popeye, second was Ich (or some type of parasite). Popeye **normally** means poor water quality. I have successfully treated popeye by putting kanamycin on food for 3 days along with consistent water changes and carbon.

Moses doesnt look as bad as Gracie, however I cannot tell from the pics if both eyes of Moses are cloudy or what if any parsite it may have.

If both eyes are cloudy, I would read Lee's replies in the following thread:

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/cloudy-eye-hippo-tang-60531/

Hopefully Lee will chime in with a proper diagnosis.

Kirk

 

[jill]

Hey Kirk,

Thanks for your thoughts. You are right about Gracies Popeye but I don't think that had anything to do with her death. About a year ago my ATO malfunctioned and cold high pH ROI water flooded my sump before I got it it, rapidly decreasing tempand salinity while increasing pH in the system. Gracie developed Popeye immediately and luckily was the only casualty. She was fine with it for the past year but I'm sure she was the fish most suseptible to pathogens. I also think that what she had was Ich (unfortunately) so thank you for your observation. I appreciate it because I've never seen this before.

When I first saw Moses cloudy eye I thought maybe Bugs, my Rabbitfish, had gotten fed up with Moses bullying and gave him a little poke. But Moses eye gets better one day and then gets cloudy again. It does seem to be in both eyes.

I did read the NWDIVER's post on the cloudy eyed Hippo tang and it was helpful but I still thought Lee might have some specific answers for my situation. I tried to provide the answers to Lee's questions proactivly because of that post.

Again, thank you Kirk. Its nice to know that someone out there cares! I love Mosey and will be sick if he dies.

Jill

 

[NC2WA]

Just another thought...If you really think Gracie had Ich, then most likely Moses does to.

Which means you will need to catch Moses and put in a QT tank for treatment.

Suggest to read these two stickys from Lee:

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/marine-ich-myths-facts-27003/

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/curing-fish-marine-ich-50933/

 

[jill]

I have read both posts as well as countless others and agree that I need to get Moses OUT. I guess I am hoping that he has something else. I couldn't find any pictures of sick fish that look like they have the same thing as Moses.

Any tips on how to get him out of my tank? He gets so freaked out when we come in with the nets that I worry about stressing him and making him sicker.

 

[NC2WA]

First I would make sure you have a suitable QT tank up and running.

Second, this is the hard part...getting the fish out.

For me, I've had better luck getting fish out at night where darkness is your friend..that and some red film paper over top of a flashlight.

You might try suggestions in this thread:

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f124/how-catch-fish-60579/

 

[jill]

I've had the QT up and running for the past week. I will try the suggestions in the post to try to get him out. Thanks for that.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[leebca]

Jill,

Sorry. I was traveling all day yesterday and slept in late today. :|

Tell me more about the plumbing change. Did you clean out all the plumbing before installing it? How did you clean it? What did you use to attach it (any glues or adhesives?)

The reason for the above questions is that it sounds as if the fish have been poisoned and I'm trying to find a likely source.

Perform a huge water change (over 80%) right now and every day for three straight days. Follow the guidelines for a huge water change: How to Make a Successful Water Change

Let me know if there are any signs to the fish 'perking up' from the above action.

 

[jill]

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly and I hope you havd a nice trip.

Before I replumbed I checked with members on this site. I was assured that they had replumbed systems and never had any issues.

We used PVC and no, I am horrified to remember that we didn't clean it out first. Stupid but I didn't think about it even after hours of planning the change. We used cement and waited a while to let it dry before we ran

the water through it. Unfortunately because of the way the aquarium was plumbed we were not able to rince water through all of the new plumbing

before running the aquarium.

As I said I did 60 g water changes 2x in the first 4 days and then 2 more since then. I will continue to change as much water as I can over the next however long.

I am sick about this but almost hope my stupidity killed Gracie and hurt Moses and Georgie rather than some nasty paracite of illness.

I was able to catch Georgie the Heniochus last night and he is sitting in my hospital tank next to my desk here. I have dosed the tank with Para Guard. Is this what I should me doing?

 

[leebca]

Hard to know what to do without a good or best diagnosis.

The not cleaning part puts it high on the list of culprits. It fits the observations and sudden death. Sorry you learned this the hard way. All new equipment must be cleaned before use. It get dirty sitting around; has the manufacturer's factory dirt and contamination all over it; etc., etc. Even after using an adhesive you want to run tank water through it. . .and down the drain. It's one of the few uses of 'used' tank water there is, made during a water exchange.

More info on cleaning at the end of this post:
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/tank-cleanup-procedures-28991/

Do you have a skimmer on the system? How is it running? Did it change any recently?

Replace your carbon or chemical filter as soon as you can, also.

 

[jill]

Yes I have a great skimmer and will use the cleanup procedures.

My big question now - Should I be using ANY medications? What about "Stress Guard"?

 

[leebca]

There are no indications that warrant the use of any additional product, at this point in time.

 

[jill]

Hi Lee and Kirk.

I do have questions but first wanted to give you an update as it has been 8 days since I first posted and 30 days since I first noticed the initial symptoms.

Moses (the Purple Tang) and Georgie (Heniochus) are both alive, eating and seem healthy. Georgie seems to have lost the little white spots from all over his body but Moses still has the white patches but they have not gotten worse. Every few days or so Moses will develop a cloudy eye and then it will go away. The other fish in the tank have no visible signs of disease or whatever has afflicted the other two.

I have done 60 gallon water changes every two days and am feeding small portions at least 4 times a day to try to help the fish keep their defenses up.

I have tried to catch Moses many times over the past week with no success.

I have read about various diseases and fear that Ich may be the culprit here but of course don't know for sure.

So my questions are:

1.) If this is Ich then I what I would be seeing right now is the Trophont stage - correct?
If this is the Thophant stage isn't it lasting way too long? my understanding is that trophonts usually mature and exit their host after 3 to 7 days and its been over 21 days since I first noticed the spots.

2.) Before I first posted I treated the tank with a 3 day course of Metronidazole. That was over a month ago. I would like to try this again.
Is it safe to dose the tank again now?

Thanks for you help.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

There are multiple stages in any MI infected tank.
A single Trophont will drop off in 3-7 days, but the ones you observe have many different ages.

 

[jill]

I know. That is why I question whether it is Ich. The affected area on my Tang is about the size of a dime (on a 5" fish). It would seem that trophonts would spread randomly and periodically over the entire fish rather than just targeting one small area on the same fish.

There are multiple stages in any MI infected tank.
A single Trophont will drop off in 3-7 days, but the ones you observe have many different ages.

 

[jill]

I just remembered my other question. Does anyone know where I could ship the fish that died for an autopsy?

I froze her after she died.

 

[NWDiver]

Good point Jill.
Interesting to hear what Lee thinks.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

I know. That is why I question whether it is Ich. The affected area on my Tang is about the size of a dime (on a 5" fish). It would seem that trophonts would spread randomly and periodically over the entire fish rather than just targeting one small area on the same fish.

If chronic and only on a single small area of the fish, unlikely to be MI.
If you look closely at a single spot, what size and shape?

 

[jill]

Hey Todd! Good to hear from you and I am glad your Tang is better. Still want to see your beautiful tank one of these days - I will PM soon.

Fishy - The fish that died looked like she might have Ich - small spots covered her entire body. The other Heniochus has looked similar off and on since the trouble began. I realize that I have not included that fact in my posts. That's why I wonder if Moses the Tang has the same thing and whether the whole tank is affected. I will try to get another picture of Moses to post.

When you say "chronic" what do you mean? Moses was unblemished until a month ago.

 

[leebca]

The MI parasite has ranges to its stages such that the population of parasites are not acting in unison. That is, for the most part, they randomize as the infection goes forward. Spots will come and go without regards to any time schedule (apparently).

Not sure about your dosing question. Do you have a diagnosis? Will the product work on it?

Seems to me more of a bacterial problem at this point in time. I would move the fish to a QT and treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic.