Let's Talk About ~Algae Control~

[Paul B]

Nikki, actually I had the same situation. There was never any bryopsis in my reef but there was some hair and other types of algae. Lettuce slugs will live on other types of algae but they will not really thrive or reproduce more than once. They really do not eat anything, they just suck out the chloroplasts. If you give them bryopsis they turn it into a slimy mush. They may take a little nutrition from hair algae but as I said I have studied them extensively and I supplied a research organization with them but the amount of hair algae they may "eat" is so small as to be negliable. I know they sell them for that reason but you would be wasting your money if your goal is algae control. Even with about 125 of them in my reef I had some hair algae. I even watched them under a magnifying glass for hours to see if they would eat it but no luck. I really wished they did, I would be a zillionaire by now.
Paul
:badgrin:

 

[NickW]

I know this will sounds like a stupid question but, " what does it mean to skim wet?"

 

[Paul B]

quote
I know this will sounds like a stupid question but, " what does it mean to skim wet?"

Take a shower and before you dry off, start your skimmer:badgrin:

Or turn up your skimmer so the effluent, or the stuff the skimmer removes is more wet than dry. It will remove a lot of water and wastes this way.
Paul

 

[gbr]

No silver bullet but my method>

Chitons (Love cyno and hair algae)

Where do you get chitons?

 

[Paul B]

I don't think you will find chitons where you live. I have never seen them for sale but they are very common in shallow water on most coasts. They don't move much though. Here in NY they are found on many rocks and even on clams and mussels. We have some shores here where there are so many mussels you can't even walk. they are a foot think in places and many of them have chitons attached.
Paul

 

[NaH2O]

Normally, they are just hitchhikers, however, I think in ethanriley's case he collected them/it in his backyard.

 

[aquariumdebacle]

You get chitons with live rock. They probably won't survive and you cannot order them for warm water environs. they are ubiquteous in cold water environs but dull an not noticed by the average tidepool gazer. They do have the unique feature of having iron as a base for their tooth structure as opposed to calcium. They are some of the most primative organisms on Earth. They proabably forage at night returning to the exact same spot every day much like a limpet. Unlike a limpet they can mold there body to the structure they are currently attached to. Limpet must return to the exact same spot that they have molded their bodies to.

 

[gbr]

Thanks all for your replies. I saw after my post that ethanriley was in the bahamas.

"probably won't survive and you cannot order them for warm water environs" - too bad. Unfortunately that usually won't stop some retailers.

I guess there is no shortcut for me to get rid of my cyano. I'll have to admit to only reading the first 4 and last 4 pages of this post. But I already know why I have it. 2.5ppm N...P is at zero but that is probably due to algae uptake.

I have cut the feeding of my fish to what I think is the minimum. They eat about all that I can see as I add it slowly and only add more only when they eat that. (I make all my food from fresh seafood...shrimp, scallops, clams, squid) For greens I use brocolli vice nori.

3x 5" tangs (purple, koles, sohal)
2x 3" clarkii
2x 1.5" clarkii
2x 3" flame hawkfish
2x mandarin (one green, one spotted)
1x 4" CBB
1x 2" chromis

I do have 2 rather large anemones (18" carpet, 18" plus sebae) that take ~ 1 1/2 large shrimp each each week (1/2 shrimp each M, W, F)...I have cut that back from 3 each.

So is this algae inevitable with my stock level in my tank.
20 month old system
180 g
55 g sump and fuge
~180g total volume
ozone, uv, skim wet (~2 gallons skimmate/day)
4-6" DSB


My rock was pretty heavily encrusted with sponge etc. when it came in and I scraped off none of it. After two years is that still coming out? I have gone through periods of 2 months on and off with no nuscience algae.

For me personally if I thought I was going to have to pull all my rock and clean it...whew...don't know if I wouldn't have to sell all the livestock and start over?

Am I going to be forced to use Phosban? Do you feel my stock is to high? If I start running Phosban will there come a day when even that doesn't keep up?

 

[NaH2O]

gbr - where is your cyano located? Is it in a certain area, or spread throughout the tank? Have you tried to narrow down your source of nitrates with any spot testing (new water before a water change, pore testing of rocks and/or DSB, sump, overflow box)? I'm guessing your fish put out quite a bit of waste, however, I'm not sure if it is overstocked, given the amount of filtration you have. How much live rock do you have in the tank? Do you routinely blast the rocks to free up detritus? Sometimes you can get areas where detritus collects and degrades. How are the bulbs, how's your water change schedule?

 

[gbr]

gbr - where is your cyano located? Is it in a certain area, or spread throughout the tank?

First...thanks for the help here.
I have about 20 plus spots where it is growing. I am not positive it is cyano, but it is redish and pretty slimy. There is a posibility that some of it is diatom. located...Tops of rocks, behind some corals, on the sand in lower flow areas, pretty much all over. These areas range in size from a quarter to ~3"x2".

Have you tried to narrow down your source of nitrates with any spot testing (new water before a water change, pore testing of rocks and/or DSB, sump, overflow box)?

I have always used ro/di and I changed carts. about 2 months ago. I recently went from IO to Reef Crystals. There are no detectable nitrates or phosphates there.
Otherwise, no pore testing, dsb or locality testing. I assume I would just pull my 1ml sample from a rock pore where the cyano is? Or from the dsb. (this better not turn into a dsb "crash" thread ...not at 20 months)

I'm guessing your fish put out quite a bit of waste, however, I'm not sure if it is overstocked, given the amount of filtration you have. How much live rock do you have in the tank? Do you routinely blast the rocks to free up detritus? Sometimes you can get areas where detritus collects and degrades.

200 lbs.
I don't blast the rocks. Seems like I spend hours a day already working in this tank and I am starting to get drained. :|

How are the bulbs, how's your water change schedule?

Bulbs are new (1 month old)
I change about 10 gallons every 4-5 days. Probably not enough huh?

 

[NaH2O]

I have always used ro/di and I changed carts. about 2 months ago. I recently went from IO to Reef Crystals. There are no detectable nitrates or phosphates there.
Otherwise, no pore testing, dsb or locality testing. I assume I would just pull my 1ml sample from a rock pore where the cyano is? Or from the dsb. (this better not turn into a dsb "crash" thread ...not at 20 months)

Yes, on the pore tests. I used a turkey baster and pulled a sample out of a rock, and put it in a glass, then tested from there. With the sand, I made a divot in the sand, and removed some water in the general area of cyano growth...placed that sample in a cup and tested it (this test was for a friend of mine having cyano issues). We won't turn it into a "crash" thread at all, but it might let you know where the nitrates are coming from. Remember though, you could always use the cyano as an export mechanism. Allow it to grow, then siphon it off (export) at water change time. If you can narrow down your source, it might help you to better deal with it. There is also a good chance that the pore water samples don't show an increase in nitrates or phosphates, as well. Just a good starting point. Don't forget to test other areas, as well. If you have an overflow box, or sump, do spot checks there, too. Seems like a lot of work, but you will be able to rule those out. Some tanks get a lot of detritus accumulation in their overflow boxes.

200 lbs.
I don't blast the rocks. Seems like I spend hours a day already working in this tank and I am starting to get drained. :|

I hear ya on the tank work. Something quick and easy I find, is just using a siphon hose and sticking it in one of my closed loop outputs, and the force coming out of there makes the rock blasting go pretty fast. You can also just use a powerhead. Find out where the pockets are in your system that like to collect detritus.

Bulbs are new (1 month old)
I change about 10 gallons every 4-5 days. Probably not enough huh?

You could try and step-up the volume of water changes, and see if it makes a difference.

 

[gbr]

I'll do some more extensive testing this weekend and report back. The pore test should be easy as will be the sand bed test. I don't think the overflow is the problem as I have ~2500 gph flowing through that overflow, although bubble algae seems to grow there real well??

Being a room divider I don't have a closed loop but I will try to blast with a tube coming off one branch of the return...good idea, thanks.

Tonight I will be building a fluidized bed reactor to run some phosphate control media in. Hopefully that helps as well.

 

[gbr]

Well I didn't get to the testing I wanted to this weekend but my first test (one I had ruled out) ended up being a source of nitrates. My Reef Crystals! I tested my RO/DI and had zero, then I tested the make up water and got between 1 and 2.5ppm. I then retested the RO/DI...again got undetectable. To this test vial I added a "pinch" of Reef Crystals salt and it instantly turned pink. I performed the test one more time with an old bucket in the garage that I had just used up...again pink. Then I performed the same test using a bucket of IO...stayed undetectable. I had questions about Reef Crystals when I got it in because it, unlike IO which has the same fine consistancy throughout, Reef Crystals has some larger chunks of yellow and white crystals intermixed with the fine salt. I just atributed this to whatever they were adding to increase Ca, Alk and Mg.

 

[LakeEd]

It might be interesting to hear from anyone else that is using Reef Crystals, and have them run the same test you just did... and see what their readings are.

 

[NaH2O]

gbr - I'm glad you found your source (at least so far). Do the test one more time on the saltwater mix...after it has been aerated overnight, instead of fresh. Then we can see what the reading is on a proper salinity and properly mixed batch.

 

[gbr]

Ed, I'll post in the general forum to ask others to try it out...we'll see.

Nikki, my first test was performed on my salt mix that had been mixed for probably 2-3 days...but aerated? Maybe some research there is in order so I can perfect my mixing regimen. Any good articles you can point me to on how to mix the salt water? Currently I add the RO/DI to a 44 gallon covered brute. I then add salt to bring it up to salinity and Epsom salt and Peladow and baking soda to bring up the Ca, Mg and Alk respectively. The brute that holds the salt water has a seio power head constantly running in it. I keep the lid on tight so I don't get any fouling of the water from the environment. This mix is then used ~10g at a time for water changes and several gallons every other day (or so) to make up for wet skimming. RO/DI is added daily for fresh make up.

I have heard "aerate" a lot with salt mixes, but I don't want to leave the cover off...??

 

[JC Pollman]

A suggestion for consideration:

I also had what was becoming a terminal cyana/dyno problem with a 2 year old DSB. I followed all the usual advice and could reduce the problem, but it never went away, and even the slightest deviaton from the routine brought it back with avengence.

The problem - from my understanding - is that you have to export the N and P or you are going to continue fighting the problem algae. What I did is to stimulate bateria production and then skimmed out the bateria. Bateria needs 3 basic elements to grow: nitrates, phosphates, and carbon. You have 2 of them in your tank already, so all you have to do is add the carbon. I added a tablespoon of sugar to my tank (240 total gallons) once a day. By day 4, my skimmer was going into over drive. After 2 weeks, my problems had gone away and my tank was crystal clear. Since that time, I add a tablespoon of sugar once a week, and my tank has not had additional outbreaks.

Obviously this is not scientific proof, but something to investigate. Instead of sugar, others have used vodka, but triggers with hangovers are not a pretty site

 

[NaH2O]

gbr - I should have typed aerate/circulate. How you mixed it was fine (provided salinity, etc are checked before water change). When I read the post, it sounded like you had just tossed some salt into the test jar, so I wasn't sure if it was properly mixed. Your question actually had sparked a thought for a new thread on how to properly mix our synthetic sea salt. I'm curious as to what people do to mix it up. This is one article on mixing salt I could find: How to Mix a Batch of Synthetic Seawater in Under Five Minutes

I asked a number of people how they mix synthetic seawater. Most of them add it gradually to a vat, bucket or other container, and mix it with an airstone or powerhead. Some people extend this process over several hours. Some people pour the salt in all at once and hang a powerhead in the vat by the cord — allowing it to swing around in the vat. Some mix it with a paddle, spoon or their hands.

While in some cases it is a good idea to aerate seawater before use, using an airstone to mix it is probably the most inefficient way other than throwing it in a container of water and allowing it to diffuse. Adding the dry salt mix slowly and dispersing it with a powerhead can give good results, but it takes a lot of time. So what is a better way?

Then on the other side of the mixing...there is this quote from Randy: Water Changes in Reef Aquaria. The point with this quote is the fact that Randy mentions ammonia as possibly being in newly mixed saltwater. I've also heard this before, so my confusion comes from the two different recommendations of these articles. On the one hand, you can mix it in under five minutes, then on the other hand, ammonia might be present from the salt mix (the reason behind my thought for a new thread....I'll link it once I get it started)

If there is substantial ammonia in the new water, as there may be in artificial salt water or possibly in natural seawater that has been stored for a while, that can also be stressful.

On a side note....you mention the use of Epsom salts. Is this something you use all the time? This quote is from the same article of Randy's above:

The unfortunate drawback of using Epsom salts is the accumulation of sulfate.

 

[gbr]

JC - I have heard of people dosing vodka and have usually just grazed over it and not really read why they were dosing, what the effects and side affects were etc. I will give it a more solid read...I think Randy did an article on it once.

Nikki - That would be a great thread and you will probably be able to "stir up" (get it?) a lot of conversation as your threads are usually followed by all.
I have been adding Epson as the only viable source of Mg for a little while now...probably 2 months. I would use MagPellets per Randy by they are not available out here. I did find a supplier on the east coast that was willing to ship for $50/bag but haven't bit on that yet. I have tried a commercial product (Seachem I think) but with a 40 gallon make up container of 1100ppm I needed to add an entire 300mg bottle ($11 at the lfs) to get to my desired 1300ppm. For now I am stuck with Epsom but I will not be using it "long term".

Sulfate? What's that cause...? From what I am reading, we are just concerned with the imbalance between sulfate and chloride using NSW as a reference. Imbalance being bad.

 

[gbr]

I am starting to go slightly mad. I am reading on N and P and methods of export and how P gets into the tank and how it stays in a DSB because the detritus is basically impossible to vacuum off. So am I stuck with a perpetual algae "problem"? The method of export would seem, as Nikki has illuded to, to be to remove the problem algae. That is just way too much maintenance in a 6' long tank that is a room divider so is basically 14' of sand. Blasting the rock will remove P from the rock...but won't it sink (according to mojo's P thread it will) right onto the sand bed? Sure some will get over the overflow and collect in the sump where it can be vacuumed but not much. If I try to pull the sand bed my anemones will need to go I would imagine. (sebae, carpet)

Off to read about sugar. Any one else want to weigh in there?