Let's Talk About ~Algae Control~

[NaH2O]

You also can't and should not strive to eliminate all nutrients as your corals need some of these to support the symbiotic algae in their tissues.

I find it nearly impossible to eliminate all the nutrients from a system (fish wastes, detritus, food inputs, etc), however controlling the inputs based on your systems needs will be helpful. For instance, SPS do much better in a system with low nutrients, as compared to softies and LPS, which would like a little nutrients.

Paul - I also have something similar to your trough. Mine is the coast to coast overflow, and grew algae quite readily in it, however, I still had an issue with nuisance algae in the tank. Parameters all were great (N and P being used by the algae, so not detectable), and corals were brightly colored, and growing, but nothing would control the algae. There is another thread in the advanced topic area about my live rock, which ended up being the major source of excess nutrients in my system. I understand that algae is a part of reef aquaria, but when it is out of control and undesirable (compared to desired coralline...except when undesired on the glass ), then there are some steps folks can take to make the most of their systems. As much as I love the algae that grows in my coast to coast (acting as an algae scrubber, I suppose), it wasn't enough to compete with the nuisance algae in the tank. I don't want my system to become dependent on an algae scrubber, so I choose to find other means to control it. I'm very glad you posted to this thread. Its great to find another method to help control the nuisance algaes in our systems, and another viewpoint! For my nano system (softies, and 2 small lps), I don't mind the little algaes growing and enjoy the fauna that lives in it, but for my SPS system, looking at algae was undesirable.

 

[ethanriley]

No silver bullet but my method>

Chitons (Love cyno and hair algae)
Phosban reactor
20% water changes every two weeks
Wet skimming
Change bulbs religously every six months
thalassia growing in main tank DSB
extended photo period (14 hours) sump with DSB and rubble with 6500 K bulbs
blue and red hermits
cerith snails

 

[Paul B]

Nikki, I know what you mean about uncontrolled algae. When it starts taking over everything there is not much you can do. I agree that we must control nutrients but I also believe that there is something about algae growth that we are missing. If we read all the posts about nusience algae and all the water changes, snails, urchins, etc and people still have problems with it. I myself do not have any algae now but I know from experience that it will return no matter what I do, I also know that even if I do nothing, it will die off eventually. I know this because my reef is so old. I did notice that it has been a year since I installed the algae trough and so far there is no algae in the tank. The last time I had a cycle of it I installed the trough and had to clean out the algae a few times but in a couple of weeks it did disappear in the tank and still grow in the trough for a while. I believe that hair algae is self limiting and a tank can only support so much of it, thats where the trough comes in. Also, my assumption is that hair algae is forced to grow in the trough because it has better conditions than my reef. It is only a few inches under the MH lights, the water is only 1/2" deep. it runs very fast and the screen is "infused" with cement. I would assume (but I am not positive) that if you had a large enough trough you could eliminate any amount of algae (albeit unpractical) I know of a study a few years ago in the Caribbean where they screened a portion of reef so no herbivores could enter and algae grew profusely. I also believe that SPS corals will not have a problem with nutrients as long as algae does not grow on them, but of course that s only my opinion. One more observation, when I am in the midst of a hair algae bloom, the corals (all types) look better, as long as the algae is not shading them. Again, only my observation.
Take care and have a great day.
Paul

 

[NaH2O]

I don't know how large of a trough I'd need to compete with the algae I had growing. Its been awhile since I read about algae turf scrubbers, but is there a formula to size? I've seen Inland Aquatics ATS and they are very large. My coast to coast spans the length of the tank and is only as wide as the overflow boxes. Any wider than that, I imagine I would start shading corals in the tank. My problem was not hair, but turf algae.....the green menace in my system...along with valonia. My perspective on SPS corals and nutrients sure they will survive, however, from what I've seen, the higher the nutrients then the less brightly colored they become. The zooxanthellae have pigments of different chlorophylls (a=blue green and c2 = light green), peridinin (red), beta-carotene (orange), and diadinoxanthin (yellow), which make brown when they are combined. If you are feeding the zoox with excess nutrients, then you will see the more brown color. The zoox cycle food to the coral (and zoox have controls they utilize), so, too many nutrients, then there would be an increase in zoox population, which creates the browning color. I had something happen like this with an acro frag. Very brown after I placed it in my tank.....then it returned to its normal coloration. I have witnessed it cycle to a more brown color on two occasions, each followed later by the return to normal color. If I really look back, it may have been with the algae blooms I was experiencing.

If you can find a link to the Caribbean study, then I'd love to see it. I wonder what the nutrients were like in the area of study, and other conditions, such as flow, temps, etc.

 

[Paul B]

Nikki, that is interesting about the browning of SPS with excess nutrients. Do you think that the browning will effect the health in any way? Of course I would like to see the other colors too I am just wondering if the coral would be any less healthy. I will try to find that study in the Caribbean but I don't know where to start, I think it was over ten years ago but they put a fine netting over a few yards of shallow reef surrounded by sand so no animals could enter and seaweed took over.
Paul

 

[liveforphysics]

A month ago in Kauai, I had such a thick dense cloud of tangs pass over me that I actaully got dissoriented from things going dark. They were moving over the reefs picking every little scrap of algae growing on the reef. In more protected areas, there were definately macro-algaes growing. Many places of the reef that were very shallow <2ft had a nice fuzzy coating to them of some mossy sort of material.

I just wanted to say that I can definately agree with seeing the tiny stubs of macro algeas growing ALL over the reefs on the north side of kauai, and amazingly dense herds of tangs that just moved all around the reefs mowing the rocks at an increadible rate.

 

[wrightme43]

Well this is just my tank. When my Naso went to the clearing at the end of the path. I started to get some red, and green turf algae. A very very hard curly algae. It wouldnt scrub off, or scrape off. When I got my Powder blue he chewed it down to the rocks. Now all there is are little bits of it in the crevices that he cant get to. As soon as it grows back at all he chews it back. I have in my sump, chaeto, grape calupera, wine glass calupera, a mangove, feather calupera, and a shaving brush algae.
I have a skimmmer that is way overrated on my tank, I have a phosban reactor. 0 nitrates, and 0 phosphates.
I think there is always going to be some algae. Its just how much and what kind.

 

[fishermann]

MY sps tank is pretty much like Steves and my tangs and snails keep it under control. I don't think you can totally eliminate it or should you want to, I think it adds to the natural look of the tank. We got a lcd wide screen tv for christmas and we had to upgrade our direct tv service to HD, when you do that you get some HD channels with the package. About 2 weeks ago there was one of the best films on a reef I have ever seen. It was in a current converange zone in Indonesaia somewhere, anyway in HD you can really see detail. There were huge monti cap's growing there and there was algae growing all over the surface of the caps, you could see the stubles and there were huge schools of tangs all over this area grazing and on the caps also. There was red and green algaes growing on the rocks. There was tons of flow in this convergence zone and it was mainly sps corals, but the theory of sps only was blowin out the window. This reef had alot of huge leathers, sea fans, xenia and anemonies mixed in with these really huge growths of sps. That changed my thinking as to you should only keep sps by themselves, which I have never agreed with anyway. Anyway IMO algae is a natural thing and we shouldn't try to eliminate it, like Paul says learn to control its growth.

 

[liveforphysics]

Wrightme43- If you have a substantial macro algea population in your sump with useful lighting (2700k-4200k), you should see what happens of you quit skimming. If you have light temp above 4200k on the algae, dont try it, I dont think they can function properly.

Just my own experience, but WOW, I cant grow algae in the display to save my life now, my snails go hungry and inactive, and I just dont get detritus build up anymore.

 

[CarlaW]

I grow more chaeto and seagrass in my fuge under 10k MH than I know what to do with. I have also grown about the same amount with daylite vho lites. I really don't think that 4200k is the absolute key to growing macros. Good water movement helps also.

 

[ldrhawke]

I just finished reading all of this........

Did anyone ever address PondGuys issues? A tank over growing with algae, dying fish, and an angry wife. This guy is begging for help and needs it.

If you are still around PondGuy.....first, build or buy that bigger and better skimmer. Without that being done you don't have a chance. Even for a 220 g tank you have a lot fish and Tangs are real waste machines. All that algae is being fed by what is not presently being removed through filtration and skimming.

Stop tearing up the tank and ripping out algae wholesale, it is putting a lot of waste into the water. After you get the new skimmer start working on small areas at a time every week to keep from polluting the water.

Add a DI filter and carbon fllter to you exisitng RO system. If fish are dying after water changes it telling you they are being stressed by it. I would get a 55 g drum and let my fresh salt water sit for a week after making it up just to be safe.

What type of algae is in the tank? I suggest stop making any more changes until you do the above. I also recommend stop feeding the fish more than once a week. They have plently to live on with all that algae and what ever is living in it.

 

[wrightme43]

Wrightme43- If you have a substantial macro algea population in your sump with useful lighting (2700k-4200k), you should see what happens of you quit skimming. If you have light temp above 4200k on the algae, dont try it, I dont think they can function properly.

Just my own experience, but WOW, I cant grow algae in the display to save my life now, my snails go hungry and inactive, and I just dont get detritus build up anymore.

I dont understand why I would quit skimming. I cant find any hard info that shows me its better to run a tank skimmer less. I mean if I could see some pictures of a bunch of tanks, with no skimmers that look better than mine, and others that run skimmers. I would probley switch over and try it. I have just never seen a tank that ran without a skimmer long term, that I liked.

I was talking about two patchs of algae less than the size of a half dollar. I use 10,000k bulbs on my fuge. I have much better success with that light spectrum. I understand that plants dont get much use out of yellow, and green light. As I understand it that is why they show up green, and yellow to our eyes, because they are reflecting that light band because they dont need it. I understand that plants use the blue specturm, and the red spectrum to make starch, and sugar.
Would you mind posting some photos of your tanks, and telling me more about your maintence practices. I have never seen a tank with no skimmer and no water changes that worked. I am not saying its impossible just that if there is a better way I wanna know about it.

 

[Scooterman]

Steve I've actually seen skimmer-less tanks going on 5 years side by side with tanks that had skimmers, they were every bit as nice or nicer looking. The two systems were as close to having the same equipment as the other but one thing they were doing that you may not see much around here is a MUDD system, they would change out a few pounds a year in both tanks. The cost for this change out was about $60 for a 100g tank.

 

[wrightme43]

Not knocking it, just wanna see it. I dont have any experince with it other than people who call me to come try and fix thier systems. There is lots I dont know.

 

[ldrhawke]

Back to the topic.......

Maybe this article has already been mentioned, if not, it is worth reading.http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/5/tips

If you don't keep phosphates very low you will always have an algae issue. Phosphate reduction and control is an accepted given. Another article on substrate testing is very significant. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/7/aafeature It shows that tanks with a coarse substrate have much higher release of phosphates than tanks with very fine substrate. It does not compare BB, but I imagine it would be similar or better than a very fine substrate in reducing phosphates.

 

[Scooterman]

LDRHawke, your tank has massive sudden water flows that cycle every so often, also lots of air bubbles rushing in, seems like this helps on your removal of waste before it ever has a chance to become a problem, I've seen your tank some time back, maybe you can elaborate on your filtration system, to me it reminds me of the effects of a system using Ozone, any thoughts on that?

 

[ldrhawke]

LDRHawke, your tank has massive sudden water flows that cycle every so often, also lots of air bubbles rushing in, seems like this helps on your removal of waste before it ever has a chance to become a problem, I've seen your tank some time back, maybe you can elaborate on your filtration system, to me it reminds me of the effects of a system using Ozone, any thoughts on that?

The comments I made in the "Reflections on Hawke's Tank" signature give a description and photos of how it works. The Fine Bubble Flotation Filtration is strictly a physical process, whereas ozone is an oxidation process. They are not the same thing.

The idea was is to simulate the natural wave action over a partially exposed coral reef that happens twice a day. The extra heavy pumping action stirs up most of the waste that settles on the bottom of the tank and on corals, putting it into suspension. The corals see for a short period of time a heavy strong flow and air bubbles. It makes the detritus available as a source of food for the coral; at the same time allows the excess waste to flow into the bag filter and skimmer and be exported.

The bubble pulse process allows fine bubbles to be pulled into the heavy recirculation pump suction and into the flow stream and be disperse throughout the tank. In the process the bubbles attach to a lot of the suspended particles which helps to float it to the top and over the over flow.

The bubbles also attach to the SPS slime and float it off. Sometimes it removes very little slime and other times the slime just seems to pour off some SPS in long slimey bubble strands for 5 minutes after the action has stopped. The heavy slime removal normally occurs in the morning after the coral are fed heavily the night before. Fine Bubble Flotation Filtration is timed to only occur every 3 hours for 10 minutes during daylight hours. I didn't like the idea of bouncing the fish around in the dark.

Does it work?......Little to no waste ever collects on the tank bottom. My ORP reading remains in the low 400's without the use of ozone and in addition my fish get a little exercise I think it works well.

 

[Scooterman]

That is what I was wondering if your process doesn't oxidize the water with the air bubbles to some degree. That is a really neat concept & way of doing things you don't need to blow off the rocks & removing that slim isn't easy.

 

[ldrhawke]

That is what I was wondering if your process doesn't oxidize the water with the air bubbles to some degree. That is a really neat concept & way of doing things you don't need to blow off the rocks & removing that slim isn't easy.

The air does dissolve into the water and helps to keep it saturated, but it is only on for a few minutes a day, so it has very little effect in the big picture.

Any skimmer is a far more effective method to keep the water oxygen saturated. I don't believe any reef tank that uses a properly sized skimmer would ever be wanting for oxygen.

 

[wave98]

Back to the topic.......

Maybe this article has already been mentioned, if not, it is worth reading.http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/5/tips

This first article is a GREAT read !

Another article on substrate testing is very significant. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/7/aafeature It shows that tanks with a coarse substrate have much higher release of phosphates than tanks with very fine substrate. It does not compare BB, but I imagine it would be similar or better than a very fine substrate in reducing phosphates.

This second article and the "study" it represents, is "Highly tainted" with poor technique, and Political agenda. I suggest this article be ignored as so much "balderdash" ! ! !

I have run across the higher phosphate "release" from larger media elsewhere, and neither confirm nor deny it. Just avoid the above article and get the info. somewhere else.


Happy Reef Keeping ! > Wave98