Let's Talk About ~Refugiums~

[NaH2O]

Time for a new topic.....let's talk about refugiums.

There are many different ways to set up a refugium, but let's first figure out what it is? Basically, a refuge/refugium is a place of shelter or protection. What types of benefits will a hobbyist see by using a refugium.....what is its purpose? What kinds of things do we use in a refugium, and do we need to use these items all the time? I also want to talk about different ways to incorporate refugiums into a set-up. Sizes, types, functions, etc.....Let's hear your thoughts and questions!

 

[snobanker]

Great topic. I have a refugium plumbed in to my 50 G, but don't have it running since I needed to move my tank. The way I understand them is that it's a good place to keep life you don't want harrassed and a good place to keep macroalgae for nutrient export. i'd definatly like to hear the successes or woes those of you who use them have had.

 

[Angelscrx]

I know you can have an under tank refugium and above tank refugium.

As a food source: The above is ideal if you are trying to get copepods, amphipods, or mysis shrimp to drop into the main display for food. Under tank fuges make that a little harder but still do-able (as in my set up).

As nutrient export: The fuge is a great place to keep and grow macro algaes such as Cheato, cualerpa, halemida etc. The debate is on for which macro algeas is ideal but most can agree the cheato is the preferred. The fuge is also a good place for a remote sandbed if someone wants a bare bottom tank. If you don't want macro algaes you can keep your rubble rock there for additional live rock filtration.

Before or after the sump? That's one I will leave to the experts

 

[piercho]

Sizes, types, functions, etc.....Let's hear your thoughts and questions!

I have a 35G black plastic tank at the bottom of my overflow that is 1) my sump, 2) the container for my algae scrubber, 3) a repository for some bits of rock, coral, and algae taken from the main tank (65G) that is effectively a refugia. The volume varies due to a reverse Carlson surge driving the main tank, but the peak volume prior to surge is likely less that 15G. The container is about 27" long X 17" wide X 14" high. The scrubber is about 6" wide and 24" long. The lighting is 1X250W 6500K on for 12 hours a day, inverse cycle. The flow is 20GPM, average, but the surge action makes it flow faster then stop briefly in a 40 second cycle. I harvest the scrubber weekly, the algae every few weeks. There are clouds of little mysis-like thingies swarming in the corners, enough so that I can whip a brine shrimp net through once and catch several. Of course there are lots of grammarus, etc, but its the mysis that are most noticeable because they are up in the water column.

What types of benefits will a hobbyist see by using a refugium.....what is its purpose?

Increasingly, I am comming to think that the concept of "refuge" should be applied to the main tank, not an auxilliary tank. The main tank becomes the refuge as the reef structure grows, IMO. If there is a "next" tank for me, I'll probably keep the scrubber, but forego any effort to culture microrganisms outside of the main tank in a refugia. I dont know how to quantitatively value the refugia I currently have. I have 2 fish that feed exclusively off of live microorganisms, I suppose I could remove the refugia and see how they fare. I *think* that they would do about as well with no separate refugia.

 

[Jonathan G.]

i know this thread hasn't developed much but im new to the game... just setup my 75 gl tank and have just 2 percs in it. question is when is the time you should adda refuge? also what is the preferred way to do it? i see people with 20 gal aquariums turned into refuges and also seen products like cpr, any of you have a say on which one works better?

 

[Angelscrx]

i know this thread hasn't developed much but im new to the game... just setup my 75 gl tank and have just 2 percs in it. question is when is the time you should adda refuge? also what is the preferred way to do it? i see people with 20 gal aquariums turned into refuges and also seen products like cpr, any of you have a say on which one works better?

Do you have a sump plumbed in already? Is your tank drilled for a sump/refugium?

I have a 55g with a 10g sump refugium set up. Will be using my 55g as the sump/refugium when the 150g goes in.

 

[NaH2O]

Good responses. Refugiums can be added at anytime, they can be really simple to complex. Many of us have them and don't even realize it. Overflow boxes can be a refugium, if someone doesn't have space to add one on. It can provide the same benefits of a separate vessel. Toss a little rubble in the overflow box, and it will quickly become inhabited with 'pods of all sorts. On my system, one overflow box is an aiptasia scrubber. Not exactly desired or intentional, but it does serve the purpose of utilizing excess nutrients....and if I harvested the aiptasia, then it would be nutrient export. Here are a few benefits I came up with (most are mentioned in previous posts): 1. When a separate vessel/container is used, depending on size, it will increase water volume and aid in water stability. 2. Filtration via the use of macro algaes, live rock, and/or sand.....even mangroves, xenia, and aiptasia will filter our systems. 3. A place for microorganisms to propagate in. Nice for live foods - especially for fish such as the mandarin. 4. If plants are used, then a lighting cycle opposite the main tank will provide some pH stability during the display tank's nightime hours.

The first step in deciding on how to set-up a refugium would be to determine what you want the refugium to do, and how much maintenance you are willing to perform. For example, the use of caulerpas for nutrient export need to be harvested regularly and properly. This would help reduce the chance of caulerpa going sexual and/or leaking out noxious substances. A refugium specifically for added water volume, biological filtration, and pod propagation (like mine) can simply be a box with live rock and power heads. The maintenance on mine is simply blowing the rocks off and siphoning up the detritus.

We've touched on some benefits and please add more as you see them. Let's talk a little about refugium size (how big should they be in relation to the tank, or does it matter?), placement (different options - some mentioned above - I'll try and dig up some pics), and flow (what should flow be like in a refugium....is it dependent on anything?).

 

[gobie]

I had an undertank fuge for over a year which was my sump. i had subsraight and it started to grow cyno bacteria in it. i was told repeatedly that my flow was not enough but i was running a iwaki 40xrlt wide open thru it so flow was not the problem. and my display was nice and clean looking. i had 3 diffrent types of caulerpa growing in it all were doing quite well all except for the cyno bacteria.

 

[Beckmola24]

I'm new to the concept of a refugium also, but my sump is divided and I was thinking about putting rubble on the one side for added bio filtration and throwing some chaeto in there for nutrient export. Can this take place in the sump or should I use a separate "tank" to house the refugium??? In regards to the pods... this may sound silly, but I reall don't know... If I put them in the sump, would they get killed by making the trip through my Iwaki into my main tank???

 

[Jonathan G.]

im running a wet/dry on my 75 gl right now, the wet/dry is rated for 150 gl. here is the websites url that gives ya a pic of it http://www.proclearaquatics.com/pro_wetdry.htm and no i dont have a built in overflow i have a prefilter/ overflow box. im just wondering how a HOB refuge like the cpr or this one these ones i saw on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=46310&item=4362665284&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3212&item=4361769520&rd=1 compare to like a DIY out of a 20 gl or one that is factory made refugium that isn't HOB.

 

[NaH2O]

Becky - I think it is a great idea to have some rubble and chaeto in your sump, if you have a spot for them. I wouldn't be too concerned about the pods and pump. They are small enough that they most likely wouldn't be effected so badly that you wouldn't get a benefit. I do know there are some hobbyists that feel this is a problem, so they use a gravity fed refugium to the tank. My refugium gravity feeds into the second compartment of the sump, where there is more live rock. Now my pods not only have to live past my return pump, but also the UV Sterilizer. If I see any issues, I'll just swap a piece of rock from the fuge in the main tank for a week or so. Also, little rubble piles in the main tank are nice, too.

Jonathan - those little hang ons are nice, although I didn't understand the concept of the bioballs in the first one?

Here are some images I found:

from Here

from Here

from Melev's Reef Site

Here's a link to Flame Angel's Reef. If you use the navigation you can click on stand and canopy to see the above tank refugium. It is pics 4, 5 and close up of plumging #9.

What do you guys think about size? I don't know if there is a standard % of refugium size vs. tank size, but I would think for pod propagation it would not matter. With regards to macroaglae useage - I'm not sure. A little 5 gallon refugium on a huge 500 gallon system may not work so well....or would it? Maybe any little bit helps with nutrient export.

 

[jlehigh]

Awesome job managing and adding to this Niki!

My .01 cents (I don't even have .02) is that I learned on a post from our pod farming sponsor that different types of POD can become competitive for food and realestate. So I would say that creating either a large space, or segmented aquascape within the refug may help foster a larger pod diversity.

Also the more Macro you can grow an harvest the more nutrient export. There was a study/analysis on the nutrient contents found within macros, Xenia, and skimmer slop. I never keep these darn studie so I'm sorry I have no reference.. it was essentially a skimate analysis. Skimmers were by far and large a more efficient means of export however one could take the measurments from the study and figure the volumes of live export methods and make them proportionate to the skimmer... Difficult to get this thought down clearly...

So if your skimmer rated to 100gal tank pulls 8oz of X out daily. Say 1lb of the chaeto exports 6% of what the skimmer does equalling .48oz. Then you might be able to guestimate or get an idea of how much you want or need in the refug.

 

[dgasmd]

There was a study/analysis on the nutrient contents found within macros, Xenia, and skimmer slop. I never keep these darn studie so I'm sorry I have no reference.. it was essentially a skimate analysis. Skimmers were by far and large a more efficient means of export however one could take the measurments from the study and figure the volumes of live export methods and make them proportionate to the skimmer... Difficult to get this thought down clearly...

I would love to read this if you can find it or at least point me in the right direction, for I have never run across anything like that.

I'll tell you my take on refugiums and why I don't have nor want one.

First of, I truly believe that anything we do in our tanks should have a good purpose/function otherwise we are waisting time, effort, and energy. Despite what most people think or say, the only thing I see a refugium good for is nitrate reduction. Macro hardly takes any PO4 at all, so for that purpose it does not work. What else that is good or bad in the water that it may take is unknown to most of us. At least to the extent of my humble knowledge. Some people say they have them for pod procreation and to feed the fish in your main display tank. Not so really. Most, if not all, amphipods, copepods, and other "bugs" are not water born. They are crawlers wondering around on the substrate and rock, but mostly rock. So, having a million of them in your refugium increases the population in the tank to almost non-existant. So, if you really want to increase the pod population in your tank for some of the live food hungry fish, you would be so much better served by putting some rubble piles inside your tank. They will become a breeding ground for these "bugs" and fish cannot get to them directly. If you think I am wrong, wait untilt he lights go out on your tank and go look in your main tank with a flashlight. Then, count how many free swimming pods you see all over your water.

Refugiums can also be plenty harmfull. See a bunch of macro that went asexual and you'll see what I am talking about. They also produce some toxic materials that we all hope are taken out by the skimmer and carbon, but nobody really knows. The macro is also like any plant and sheds some branches and "leaves" into the water or substrate. If you don't remove it they rot defeating the purpose of why you had them in the first place. Add that to a sand bed there and you now have a rotting sponge.

I had one in my previous tank. It was a good way of adding 100g to the system (550g), it soaked up lots of nitrates fromt he large population of fish I had, but it also was a lot of work. One thing I did not realize was the large amounts of decomposing materials a refugium can produce until I tore it up. THe refugium had been on for a year. All I ever put there was 100 Lb or so of LR and some macro. Lights were on 24/7 and it did grow a ton of it. As a matter of fact, I removed about 1/3-1/2 of a IO bucket every 2-3 weeks. When I tore up the refugium, there was a 3" deep layer of mud at the bottom. Where did it come from? Take a guess.

I decided I would not put a refugium this time around as I have a bare bottom tank and have a very low bioload from fish. I do a lot of other things now too.

One thing refugiums are great for in the other hand is to have a completely different population of fish and such that you cannot have in the main tank. For example, you would love to have sea horses and pipe fish but you also ahve much bigger fish that will harass and compete for food with the them. You can turn the refugium in a nice home for them without having to double up on equipment or setting up another system altogether. For this alone it can be extremely rewarding. Also, it can another place where to put some new fish to fatten them up before introduction to the main display. It will allow the fish to have no competition for food and develop some good eating/feeding habit if it was a very picky eater. Once put in the main display, it is in the same water (no further acclimation). However, this is no quarintne as any disease the new fish brought in it will spread in the same water.

OK, flame me well..............

 

[RedEyeReef]

dgasmd, I like a lot of you points. I personally love my 2 refugiums and both serve a different purpose. I do use my Macro refugium to acclimate and fatten up new fish before they go into the main tank. I have had a new fish have ich and fight it off naturally (I believe a health fish in a health tank will fight ich no problem) and none of the fish in my reef showed any signs of ich.

Personally I enjoy watching the life in my refugium about as much as in my reef. Any tank, main or refugium, can go bad if not properly cared for. For me refugiums work and are fun.

 

[NaH2O]

Alberto! No flaming . I do disagree on your comments about copepods in the water column:

There are three types of Copepods that are free-swimming and make good fish food:* Calanoid, Harpacticoid, and Cyclopoid.* Cyclopoid species are mainly freshwater, and don't play as much of a role for hobbyists as the other two types.* Calanoid species are mainly swimmers - they can spend their entire life cycle in the water column once they hatch from eggs.* They have large frilly antennae and dart very quickly when startled.*** Harpacticoids are "epibenthic", meaning that they spend part of their life cycle or time during the day on the bottom or clinging to a surface.* Their antennae are much shorter than their body length and they look like little torpedoes.* They tend to carry their eggs in big sacs, which can be visible to the naked eye.* They do not swim as quickly as Calanoids, making them easier to capture as a food.*

and an image from the same article:

From: 'Pods Delicious and Nutritious

If I was ambitious enough, I'd stick a filter sock on the end of the refugium output and count how many pods came out. I suppose I'd need a strong magnifying glass, because according to the article - copepods are very small and often not seen until they reach a larger population.

I do agree that the use of Caulerpas and Halimedas to be risky, and not something I would want in my system.
Here are a couple of threads: Caulerpa Problems Poll
Caulerpa Toxicity in Perspective

My thoughts on macroalgaes, if you use them, be sure to keep up with maintenance.

 

[gobie]

speeking of fuges does any one make a better bigger hotfuge than cpr

 

[fishermann]

I have bought pods from Adelaide at Essential Live Foods and talked to her about pods and she says they well pass through pumps with no problems especially the copepods since they are so small and are very tuff. Passing them through UV well do them all in, so if all your pods are being passed through UV on the return to the tank they well arrive but not alive.

 

[aloha_ssn]

so if i have a sump on my tank and just put some LR rubble it it then i have just turned it in to a refugium right or am i wrong in this thought.

 

[fishermann]

LR rubble well give you more capacity for the bio system and a place for the pods to hang out and it well collect detritus for the pods to eat.

 

[RedEyeReef]

LR rubble well give you more capacity for the bio system and a place for the pods to hang out and it well collect detritus for the pods to eat.

I use to have LR rubble area in my reef for this reason but I took it out because of all the detritus that collected, and it was in a very high flow area of my reef. I did grow a ton of pods.