Herefishyfishy
Smart Bass
Kirk, my condolences on your loss. I often attribute sudden unexplained death after vitality signs, as from cyanide catching. Controversial, but often true.
Majestic Angelfish
- Thread starter NC2WA
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azgard1
Well-known member
Agree on the cyanide catching also maybe some unseen internal disease.
In any event so sad when you have and animal interacting closely with you, bummer.
Kirk, I know you'll have another one eating out of your hand soon.
In any event so sad when you have and animal interacting closely with you, bummer.
Kirk, I know you'll have another one eating out of your hand soon.
Damsel13
Well-known member
I did not see your post. I am so sorry Just so sorry.
Jobiwan
Well-known member
So sorry for your loss Kirk, helluva thing to go through, you certainly weren't doing anything wrong. I doubt it was cyanide, if I remember right cyanide collection leads to the necrosis of the interior lining of the intestine so no nutrients can be absorbed, you generally get a long slow wasting affect where the fish slowly starves while eating vigorously, it takes a while for the fish to basically starve, you'll be able to see it losing weight. Any wholesaler dealing with collectors involved with cyanide would soon be out of business in this day and age, it is relatively rare compared to a generation ago, I think the Phillipines were most notorious for this back then, but I could be wrong about this..
NC2WA
Well-known member
Tank Diver Mike,
This was the first thing that came to mind. This fish came from Jakharta/Bali. I have had a bad serious of luck with fish lately. First a CBB that went on a hunger strike and died, now this fish. My wife is floored and is giving the "no more fish buying" look for a while. However, we know that is NOT going to happen.
But, I may have to rethink what fish are going to be in the tank. I had originally thought of housing the following large angelfish: a majestic, emperor, scribbled, and queen and for the dwarf angels: a flame and cherub angels. I may cut the large angel list in half and just go with a emperor and queen and add a Pink-tail or blue throat triggers. I know these triggers are hardy (as I have had them before).
Azgard1, I do NOT clean my tank with Windex, I use plain tap water. I do have the QT tank in the garage, could it be the garage door going up or down, maybe it is causing stress on the fish (this is my wife's theory). I doubt this is it, but thought I would throw it out there.
This was the first thing that came to mind. This fish came from Jakharta/Bali. I have had a bad serious of luck with fish lately. First a CBB that went on a hunger strike and died, now this fish. My wife is floored and is giving the "no more fish buying" look for a while. However, we know that is NOT going to happen.
But, I may have to rethink what fish are going to be in the tank. I had originally thought of housing the following large angelfish: a majestic, emperor, scribbled, and queen and for the dwarf angels: a flame and cherub angels. I may cut the large angel list in half and just go with a emperor and queen and add a Pink-tail or blue throat triggers. I know these triggers are hardy (as I have had them before).Azgard1, I do NOT clean my tank with Windex, I use plain tap water. I do have the QT tank in the garage, could it be the garage door going up or down, maybe it is causing stress on the fish (this is my wife's theory). I doubt this is it, but thought I would throw it out there.
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azgard1
Well-known member
I really doubt it was a stress issue especially since it seemed to be such a happy camper. How about toxic fumes from a car warming up?
I know that sound stupid and you are a seasoned reefer, just trying to through out some ideas. Just seems so weird that everything is fine then 24hs later boom.
Post #12 might be worth checking "My buddy, wgchristman bought the other majestic angel from Eric that came in with yours". Could verfy a possable issue as Tank Diver Mike sugested.
I know that sound stupid and you are a seasoned reefer, just trying to through out some ideas. Just seems so weird that everything is fine then 24hs later boom.
Post #12 might be worth checking "My buddy, wgchristman bought the other majestic angel from Eric that came in with yours". Could verfy a possable issue as Tank Diver Mike sugested.
azgard1
Well-known member
Got a 2x post, tried to delete. Anyway Happy holidays.
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Snowboarda42
Cirrhitichthys falco
Sorry to hear this happened, bro.
Herefishyfishy
Smart Bass
Some good info on one of the suggested possibilities: http://coralrescue.com/cyanide.htm
http://www.seaweb.org/programs/asiapacific/documents/LiveReef.pdf
http://books.google.com/books?id=Z2...iqp6&sig=L22uH07on3pj4cPxDol79Qs98S8#PPA65,M1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_food_fish_trade
http://www.spc.int/coastfish/News/lrf/5/1Clove.htm
What has discontinued is the "discussion of the use of Cyanide, in lieu of it's actual use.
Politically incorrect, but easy money for impoverished tropical residents.
Don't ask, don't tell...
http://www.seaweb.org/programs/asiapacific/documents/LiveReef.pdf
http://books.google.com/books?id=Z2...iqp6&sig=L22uH07on3pj4cPxDol79Qs98S8#PPA65,M1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_food_fish_trade
http://www.spc.int/coastfish/News/lrf/5/1Clove.htm
What has discontinued is the "discussion of the use of Cyanide, in lieu of it's actual use.
Politically incorrect, but easy money for impoverished tropical residents.
Don't ask, don't tell...
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Jobiwan
Well-known member
Scary stuff if true Mike, makes us all irresposible for buying fish that comes from certain areas, and makes a mockery of the oft repeated "reefkeepers don't have an impact on reef ecology, we actually encourage the preservation of these resources through our efforts", gives me a chill to think we are all contributing to the decimation of reefs through our desire to own certain species of wild caught fish...
Herefishyfishy
Smart Bass
Very well said Joe. I have been personally responsible for a lot of destruction through the years, through my false assumptions of the infiniteness of the oceans and reefs. This is one reason I consider each specimen precious and heavily promote the propagation and sharing of our valuable genetic material we are conservators for. Generosity is a necessity to the vitality of our hobby. Sorry for the soapbox.
NC2WA
Well-known member
Mike,
Thanks for the resources. !!!!
I believe I may have succumb to the SDS Syndrome:
"Have you ever purchased a fish and had it die within a few weeks all of a sudden with no apparent cause? If you have then you may have just experienced the Sudden Death Syndrome (SDS).4 SDS has been used to describe the sudden mortality of fish exposed to excessive stressors during the collection and importation chain. The use of cyanide as a collection tool has been shown to increase mortality rates both within a few days of collection as well as sudden deaths weeks after collection."
This fish was purchase from Jakarti (Indonesia area), so there is a good chance I was a victim of some type of poisoning. Sad, as it was such a pretty fish; and it does hurt financially. Again, I learned something from this experience and more important learned what type of questions to ask, for example, "Are the wholesalers you are purchasing your fish from, MAC certified"? "Are you confident that the fish you are purchasing are cyanide-free"?
Kirk
Thanks for the resources. !!!!
I believe I may have succumb to the SDS Syndrome:
"Have you ever purchased a fish and had it die within a few weeks all of a sudden with no apparent cause? If you have then you may have just experienced the Sudden Death Syndrome (SDS).4 SDS has been used to describe the sudden mortality of fish exposed to excessive stressors during the collection and importation chain. The use of cyanide as a collection tool has been shown to increase mortality rates both within a few days of collection as well as sudden deaths weeks after collection."
This fish was purchase from Jakarti (Indonesia area), so there is a good chance I was a victim of some type of poisoning. Sad, as it was such a pretty fish; and it does hurt financially. Again, I learned something from this experience and more important learned what type of questions to ask, for example, "Are the wholesalers you are purchasing your fish from, MAC certified"? "Are you confident that the fish you are purchasing are cyanide-free"?
Kirk
Jobiwan
Well-known member
Right on guys, your experience has opened my eyes Kirk, I feel very bad for you going through that, but is has given me a serious reality check, thanks for your info Mike, it's folks like you that make this site such a wealth of info....
Damsel13
Well-known member
What does MAC stand for exactly? I have been wondering for a while. There were some dime sized blue (hippo?) tangs that said mac certified and they were quite expensive. I did not buy because I already have a tang in my 55gal. but was still curious.
NC2WA
Well-known member
Me too. I knew to stay away from fish from the Philippines as this was common knowledge, but I had NO idea that 80-90% of fish exported from Indonesia, use cyanide. Amazing and outstanding fact for anyone that is considering buying fish from this region. Yes it is a hard lesson to learn, but one that will NOT be repeated.
Deb, MAC stands for Marine Aquarium Council. It is in one of the links Mike provided. However, if you want to learn more information about it, I suggest you read the information on this web site, http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/
Deb, MAC stands for Marine Aquarium Council. It is in one of the links Mike provided. However, if you want to learn more information about it, I suggest you read the information on this web site, http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/
SharkReef
www.thesharkreef.net
Kirk,
Sorry for your loss. For all that would like to know the fish was purchased by me from a wholesaler in Los Angeles. One of the biggest an most well known much like the others that are down the same street in LA. They told me it was they were from Indo so that's all I know. The other one that came in that shipment is still doing well and eating.
As far as SDS goes that happens to hand caught net caught fish all the time. Have any of you ever gone out and caught fish in the ocean? I have been out with my friends in Hawaii on multipule occassions and if you do not bring the fish up from deep (60 ft or more) waters slow enough their air bladders swell up and you need to pin them. That means you get a small pin and stick them with it so the air goes out and it is no longer swolen. With angels you typically have to go through their anus area to get to the air bladder which means you have to go through a lot of other organs or parts of their body to get to them. Which means they could get hurt with the pinning also.
So what am I getting at? Well think of all the stress that fish can go through. First they are caught (let's say I caught it in Hawaii myself) I bring it up for hours and yet it still swells up so I have to pin it. THen I put it in a holding facility where it has to adjust to life in a fish tank for a few days to a week or so then it gets thrown into a bag and shipped in a box for 24 hours or so. Now if the fish was lucky it got shipped right to my shop direct if not then it goes to a wholeslaer in LA and it has to get acclimated again into a system and is most likely put back into a bag within a 24 hour period and then takes another 24 hours to get to me. How much STRESS is that??? It's a lot like slavery!!! Did everyone make it on the long boat trip? Nope!
I get fish from my friends in Hawaii that I KNOW 100% that they are net caught by hand you can even see videos of them on my website. And when I get them I have had fish that are perfectly healthy as far as I can tell die in a weeks time here at the shop. I just today pulled out a dead flame angel that was perfectly fine last week that my friend caught in Hawaii. Does that mean it was cyanide? No, fish just die!!! It happens. They are stressed out beyond our comprehension. I don't know that majestic angel was 100% caught by hand without Cyanide because I did not catch it myslef or was there when it was caught. But I believe that my wholesaler is very reputable and have had great success with their fish. SDS happens and with all these fish go through you have to see how this is true. It still happens to MAC certified fish and to tank raised fish too. I have had it happen. So please do not everyone jump on the Cyanide wagon. YES Cyanide is BAD and we must try and stop that by not buying from people who do that that is why I have reaserched my suppliers and done my very best to make sure that does not happen.
I hope my comments will shed light on how much stress these fish go through and how fish can suddenly die with out any signs and still be caught properly.
Sorry for your loss. For all that would like to know the fish was purchased by me from a wholesaler in Los Angeles. One of the biggest an most well known much like the others that are down the same street in LA. They told me it was they were from Indo so that's all I know. The other one that came in that shipment is still doing well and eating.
As far as SDS goes that happens to hand caught net caught fish all the time. Have any of you ever gone out and caught fish in the ocean? I have been out with my friends in Hawaii on multipule occassions and if you do not bring the fish up from deep (60 ft or more) waters slow enough their air bladders swell up and you need to pin them. That means you get a small pin and stick them with it so the air goes out and it is no longer swolen. With angels you typically have to go through their anus area to get to the air bladder which means you have to go through a lot of other organs or parts of their body to get to them. Which means they could get hurt with the pinning also.
So what am I getting at? Well think of all the stress that fish can go through. First they are caught (let's say I caught it in Hawaii myself) I bring it up for hours and yet it still swells up so I have to pin it. THen I put it in a holding facility where it has to adjust to life in a fish tank for a few days to a week or so then it gets thrown into a bag and shipped in a box for 24 hours or so. Now if the fish was lucky it got shipped right to my shop direct if not then it goes to a wholeslaer in LA and it has to get acclimated again into a system and is most likely put back into a bag within a 24 hour period and then takes another 24 hours to get to me. How much STRESS is that??? It's a lot like slavery!!! Did everyone make it on the long boat trip? Nope!
I get fish from my friends in Hawaii that I KNOW 100% that they are net caught by hand you can even see videos of them on my website. And when I get them I have had fish that are perfectly healthy as far as I can tell die in a weeks time here at the shop. I just today pulled out a dead flame angel that was perfectly fine last week that my friend caught in Hawaii. Does that mean it was cyanide? No, fish just die!!! It happens. They are stressed out beyond our comprehension. I don't know that majestic angel was 100% caught by hand without Cyanide because I did not catch it myslef or was there when it was caught. But I believe that my wholesaler is very reputable and have had great success with their fish. SDS happens and with all these fish go through you have to see how this is true. It still happens to MAC certified fish and to tank raised fish too. I have had it happen. So please do not everyone jump on the Cyanide wagon. YES Cyanide is BAD and we must try and stop that by not buying from people who do that that is why I have reaserched my suppliers and done my very best to make sure that does not happen.
I hope my comments will shed light on how much stress these fish go through and how fish can suddenly die with out any signs and still be caught properly.
wgchristman
Well-known member
Sorry to hear about your Majestic dying. Hopefully this incident doesn't keep you from getting another Majestic.
I have the other Majestic from SharkReef. When I first got him, it took a few days until he would eat anything because he spent most of the time hiding. After the third day, he developed some fungus back by his tail, which had me so bummed out. I hoped and prayed that it was because of the stress and the lack of eating. Now that he is used to people coming around the tank, he is eating more and the fungus is gone.
Your wife may be on to something about the stress from the garage doors. Out of all the fish that I have, this one is the easiest to spook. Sometimes, just the vibrations from walking across the floor will send him into hiding.
With wild caught fish, I think it's a toss up whether they'll survive the stress of shipping plus any added stress once we get them in our tanks.
That said, I have a number of wild caught fish from SharkReef and would not hesitate to buy from them again.
. Hopefully this incident doesn't keep you from getting another Majestic.I have the other Majestic from SharkReef. When I first got him, it took a few days until he would eat anything because he spent most of the time hiding. After the third day, he developed some fungus back by his tail, which had me so bummed out. I hoped and prayed that it was because of the stress and the lack of eating. Now that he is used to people coming around the tank, he is eating more and the fungus is gone.
Your wife may be on to something about the stress from the garage doors. Out of all the fish that I have, this one is the easiest to spook. Sometimes, just the vibrations from walking across the floor will send him into hiding.
With wild caught fish, I think it's a toss up whether they'll survive the stress of shipping plus any added stress once we get them in our tanks.
That said, I have a number of wild caught fish from SharkReef and would not hesitate to buy from them again.
SharkReef
www.thesharkreef.net
Sounds like yours MAY have been pinned from the anus area. I was told by my buddy in Hawaii that often with angels since they must be pinned near the anus area that you can hit other parts of the body and it can start to look infected some days after pinning it. Sometimes they can then get an internal infection which is hard to stop, if at all.
Thanks for sharing your success too Wayne!!!
SharkReef
www.thesharkreef.net
Here a couple more questions to ask. How lng have you had your QT up and going? Didn't you just set it up a few days prior to getting the fish? And how high was your copper level? As I said on the phone, angels do not tolerate really high copper levels very well from my experience and many of my suppliers experience. If you had it too high that could be another possible reason.
NC2WA
Well-known member
Eric,
QT tank was up and running a couple days prior to the angel enter the tank. The majority of the water (75%) came from my main display tank and the rest of the water was mixed saltwater that had been ready for several days. I did not use ANY copper in this tank. However, I do have some cupramine on stock in case I needed to use it.
QT tank was up and running a couple days prior to the angel enter the tank. The majority of the water (75%) came from my main display tank and the rest of the water was mixed saltwater that had been ready for several days. I did not use ANY copper in this tank. However, I do have some cupramine on stock in case I needed to use it.
