Me, Myself, & Sherman too.

[Jan]

And please understand, I think as a group, we aquarium keepers are getting screwed on salt. Every time I buy I get upset, not because I can't afford it, but because I know it is way over-priced. If I pay a premium, I want a premium product, and unfortunately, we are just not seeing that in aquarium salt.

I hear you on that issue. Did I tell you how my second purchase of the Reefer's Best salt (Korallen-Zucht for zeovit users) came out at 9.5 dhk per my LaMotte Alk test kit? I sent a sample to Billybeau at ReefCentral to test and he posted the results on his thread. He got 11 dhk per his Salifert test kits. Pretty ironic to get this result from the method that requires adherence to NSW parameters.

that's the attraction to the gettanked salt (if the parameters were correct), because you shouldn't get batch variation if you use the entire contents of the bag.

Hi Jan!

What I got was 25g bags so maybe I got the newer version? At any rate, no way it mixes up to 10 or even 7 dKh.

On the phone call issue, I just don't have the time or brain bucks for that. I rarely you the phone unless it is a good friend or I need to reem out a supplier.

Regarding a large order...I received mine broken up into USPS flat rate boxes, which he probably has figured out is the best way to go. Shipping by truck can get extremely expensive depending on how the company rates loads, whether it be by weight or simply by pallet. In my business, I buy enough volume that my suppliers ship for free. That's one of the reasons why we have lower prices than our competitors.

Since it appears Gary is making this by hand, he just may not have the capacity for very large orders. Plus, you have to wonder why it isn't in distribution. FIrst answer is that he can make more money, which is very understandable, especially since the distribution side of the hobby is a bunch of idiots.

Anyway, get some and test it. I was quite pleased at the total lack of ammonia and phosphate, but I really want a higher alk mix.

And please understand, I think as a group, we aquarium keepers are getting screwed on salt. Every time I buy I get upset, not because I can't afford it, but because I know it is way over-priced. If I pay a premium, I want a premium product, and unfortunately, we are just not seeing that in aquarium salt.

 

[jnarowe]

I hear you on that issue. Did I tell you how my second purchase of the Reefer's Best salt (Korallen-Zucht for zeovit users) came out at 9.5 dhk per my LaMotte Alk test kit? I sent a sample to Billybeau at ReefCentral to test and he posted the results on his thread. He got 11 dhk per his Salifert test kits. Pretty ironic to get this result from the method that requires adherence to NSW parameters.

that's the attraction to the gettanked salt (if the parameters were correct), because you shouldn't get batch variation if you use the entire contents of the bag.

Maybe I should switch to Reefer's best? :lol: I thought natural SW was around 8 - 9 dKh. Am I wrong about that?

Your'e dreaming on the batch variation thing. Bag to bag I would guess a much higher probability of variation with Gary's salt. Maybe we should just make our own?

 

[Jan]

Hah...yeah, you might like it. NSW alk is 6.5-8 dhk.

THe KZ people said that the large batches of salt mix in commercial operations create a 10-15% variation potential between batches. Then if you add in that people don't use the entire 150g bag at once, and may not stir it up well either, the variation can be more extreme.

People say that Gary's salt mixes up consistently from batch to batch, "Spot on the money." You do have to use the entire contents to achieve that, though. I don't know what happened with yours. I will be getting 6 25 lb bags in my order so it will be interesting to see how close my 50 gallon batches will turn out.

 

[jnarowe]

Very interesting and I am glad you are on-board with this. As you know, I wix up about 90g at a time, which as a rule of thumb, matches most salt mixes' 100g proportion. It's much easier to add a couple 50g bags, fill my bin, and test a day later, then i can add salt or water to bring it to 1.026. The trouble I am having with the gettanked salt, is getting it to 1.026. I certainly am not going to measure out 75g by hand.

 

[Jan]

Many people are following a process similar to yours, using up the entire portion of the GT salt in their containers and adding enough water to dissolve it into a high salinity slurry. Then they know that all the traces, minerals and major elements are in the right proportions. Once they have their slurry they store some and add water to the remainder to get it to 1.0264 sg. That is Gary's recommended process as a matter of fact for anyone who doesn't have the capacity to store an entire bag mixed to 1.0264 sg. I've started using this process with the 62 gallon bags from Tunze as a matter of fact. I put the whole bag into my 50 gallon container, add water, measure salinity (it's ~1.030 sg), remove some liquid for storage, and add more water to the 50g Brute to achieve my desired salinity. I'm trying to eliminate all the factors I can that have caused me to get funky results with my salt batches.

The other thing I've spent time on is cross-checking my salinity measurement devices. I learned that that Pinpoint salinity calibration fluid is not lab-grade calibrated itself. My first bottle of it read 3 points lower than the second two bottles I purchased (which matched eachother). I took a water sample plus my pinpoint solution to Barrier Reef and they measured it against their own refractometer (calibrated with their bottle of pinpoint). Their pinpoint was 1 point lower than my last two, but two points higher than my first one. So which one is correct? Thomas Pohl, the founder of KZ in Germany is sending me a saltwater sample from his system which he has measured to be 1.0264. His measuring device is a $2500 dollar electronic thingy so I can't wait to compare it to my various bottles of pinpoint. This whole salinity measuring saga has been quite a learning experience for me, let me tell you.

 

[jnarowe]

well, I use a refractometer of course, and calibrate it with both RO/DI water, as well as a LaMotte hydrometer. BTW, I am not really sure it is THAT important to be spot on. At least not in a system with a lot of evap like mine.

 

[Jan]

Thank goodness our animals are adaptable to different salinity levels--I don't know what would have happened in my reef over the past year. I just want to know what my levels really are so I can calibrate my refractometer correctly and be able to trust my test results on other parameters.

 

[jnarowe]

Something interesting to note: While discussing this on another forum, one brainiac asked about precipitate. I originally said there was none, but upon a closer look, found a fair amount in the bottom of the bin.

His suggestion was that mixing the salt in the manner that I did, ie. starting at a high salinity and working my way down, would cause alk to precipitate out. So I did a big manual stir. With the water still cloudy from the stir, the alk is now 4.8 dKh. I will report back tomorrow evening with the final alk, but it seems that he is correct based on today's observations.

 

[jnarowe]

This is a paste of a post made by Garry on another forum, in which he explains the lack of alkalinity in my batch:

Jnarowe:
I never saw any labels on the boxes, but then again, I didn't unpack them.
gettanked:
Then that might explain why you did not see the provided labels.

Here are the directions:
In order to provide a chemically balanced synthetic sea salt, the calcium has been packaged separately preventing the precipitation of solids (cloudiness) associated with other salt brands. Mixing Instructions: Remove calcium packet and mix entire contents with R/O DI water. Never add calcium to the salt mix. Use a strong water pump to stir salt and water for 24 to 48 hours. This is called aging your water. (Approximate Values for Aquarium Purposes): Alkalinity 10 dKH, Calcium 450 ppm, Specific Gravity 1.026, pH 8.4, Magnesium 1350 mg/L, Boron 4.5 mg/L, Potassium 380 mg/L. Following water change, pre-dissolve entire calcium packet if you are going to do a total 25 gallon water change at one time or pre-dissolve approximately 1 teaspoon of the calcium packet per every gallon of water you are changing. Add pre-dissolved calcium slowly and immediately after water change. Due to the calcium being separate from the salt mix, ph & alkalinity will be slightly higher until calcium is added, which is normal. Organic Means: This Product has No YPS / A.K.A. Anti-Caking Agents or EDTA.

Jnarowe:
So rather than getting into some BS, why don't you explain what I did wrong.
gettanked:
Your mistake was that you added the calcium to the salt mix.
The white cloudiness/ precipitation are more then likely the alkalinity supplement precipitated out of the water column and is the reason why you are getting low alkalinity readings.

Jnarowe:
I looked on your site but could not find the mixing instructions therin.
gettanked:
I’m in the middle of updating the salt pages on my web site.

Jnarowe:
Based on the very good results for the "bad stuff", I am keen on understanding the alkalinity issue. I will be testing my batch again today and will report back.
gettanked:
You are correct my sea salt has no: Ammonia, Phosphates, Nitrate, Silicate or YPS / A.K.A Anti-Caking agents or free flowing agents, No added EDTA, No brown slime in the mixing bucket and also mixes clear in about 20 to 30 minutes.
It will be fruitless to keep testing the alkalinity in that same batch that precipitated, just add some alkalinity supplement and let the saltwater clear and use the salt mix, you will have no negative effect on your system.
If you have any unopened bags of sea salt left, mix them and test with-out adding the calcium and then add a maximum of 30% of the calcium wait a few hours and you will see your pH and alkalinity drop, the longer you wait to test, the lower the 2 levels will be.

Jnarowe:
Also, did I get Formula #1 or Formula #2?
gettanked:
You had received my original formula which is the formula # 1.
The original formula has been in use since “2000” with great success.

Listen everybody we are brain washed into thinking of just one way of doing things in this hobby, figuratively speaking I’m looking and doing things from out side the box and with great success!

Try a bag or two of my sea salt and follow the directions to the TEE and then you be the judge as with the positive effects that you will see in your own tanks.

Jon, if you or anyone else needs more detailed info, please call me at 717-243-9545.

I have to get back to my very busy schedule and thank you for your time.

that's rather interesting. But I guess then we won't know what the calcium level is of a mixed batch of water, since you add the calcium to the system rather than the batch. I dissolved the calcium in RO/DI first of course.

Regardless, I see a lot of promise in this salt if we can figure out a way to make it economically feasible, ie. get shipping costs down.

 

[Jan]

One of the guys on Zeovit.com has been adding the calcium to his batches (against instructions), I think he does a slow drip or something. He says the water is a bit cloudy for 30 minutes after he adds the new SW batch to his system but then it clears. He has been diligently testing the parameters of this salt mix before adding it and says that the parameters have been "spot on" every time he's tested. I will post some test results from that forum (all of these are low-alk version, #2):

user #1, says he's got these parameters from every batch over 2 months, mixed at 1.025 sg:
Calcium 420
Mag 1350
Potassium 390
KH 7.5

user #1, second set of results he posted, mixed at 1.026 sg:
Salinity 1.026
K- level 380
Calcium 450
Mag 1320 to 1350
DKH 7.5 to 8

user #2 test results, mixed 1.026 sg:
salinity 1.026
dKH7.5-8
Ca 400-410 (he used less Ca granulate then user#1 to better balance with alk level.)
Mg 1320-1350
K 380

 

[jnarowe]

Jan,

Once you have gotten it in and done a full testing, we should talk. There is more than one way to get this salt from Garry, including buying the sodium chloride locally and saving about 65% (or so) on freight. It's more complicated but might work.

I think a group buy may be a good idea although I like my alk to be a bit higher. I just got off the phone with him and it pains me that he is driving a one-man salt "revolution" but that the average user just doesn't understand salt well enough. I may be able to go with Formula #2 and just bump the alk for my system.

 

[Jan]

Why not get forumula #1 and not need to bump the alk up? Gary will do a split group buy with both formulas.

 

[jnarowe]

ah...wasn't thinking about that.

 

[jnarowe]

So after a couple of discussions with Garry today I did learn a few things. First of all my alk was off because I added the calcium into the batch, as discussed earlier. He is also willing to ship it without the calcium chloride which would complicate things but allow for a substantial savings on shipping. Of course, if we source calcium chloride locally, it would have to be food grade, with no additives like anti-caking agents etc.

So I mixed up a "new" batch to 1.026 and got a dKh of 8.0 on the button. The reason it was just 8.0 is that I only had enough to make 50g so I added it on top of about half the old batch. I did the test about an hour after the initial mix and did notice very minor cloudines in the water.

I am really interested in pursuing this further. This may be my new salt!

 

[Jan]

I am interested in it too. I'll post my results after I mix up my first batch.

Did you mean to say calcium chloride, or sodium chloride that we could add from a local source?

 

[jnarowe]

uh...crud...I think sodium chloride actually. Darn daim brammage.

 

[NC2WA]

interesting read about your findings...

 

[jnarowe]

On a lark I picked up a bucket of Red Sea Pro from Eric and tested it tonight:

Salinity: 1.026 (refractomer)
Alkalinity: 6.6 dKh (Salifert)
Calcium: 425 ppm (Salifert)
Magnesium: 1275 ppm (Salifert)
Silicate: .05 mq/l (SeaChem)
Ammonia: 0 (AP)
Phosphate: 0 (D-D/Merk)

That's pretty good IMO. The dKh is too low for me, but it certainly would be good for Zeo-Heads. BTW, I found the gettanked salt to mix fairly cloudy even when I did it following the directions closely. It took a couple hours of mixing to clear up in my case.

 

[Jan]

The RSCP has good numbers but for some reason I get increased algae growth when I use it (green microalgae on the tank walls). That's happened to me every time I use it.

 

[sherm71tank]

The same thing happened to me when I tried the regular Red Sea salt so I haven't bothered with the Pro. Maybe something about them using "natural" sources?