Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything

[SantaMonica]

title of the thread implies.

"Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium"

Ok, the title talks about a device which supposedly removes N and P. We probably agree on that. And that part is proven, and the other folks agree with that part too. Now, if this nitrate and phosphate remover worked very well, better than other nitrate and phosphate removers, then you might be able to say that it could replace those other removers. Of course, what we're talking about here is using these devices to remove nitrate and phosphate, which of course, is in the title.

Now, suppose you personally use your refugium to breed clown fish. Would you look at the title and say, "wait, you can't replace refugiums because there's no proof that my clown fish will live."? Probably not. But that's what they, and apparently, you, are doing. The "replaceing skimmers, etc" applies only to reducing N and P. It has nothing to do with DOC, SPS, or anything besides N and P reduction. They know this, but they want to create argument so that skimmer sales will continue to increase. BTW, I have nothing against skimmers; I'll probably be using one in my next FO tank, where I'll have no use for live plankton, and where I want high phosphate because I'm not going to want coralline growing over my black acrylic backdrop.

 

[freetareef]

"wow...principles before personalitys, thats how a post should be read, considered and replied to imho, for the greater good and learning of the forum community."

that was my first thought as i read through the posts on the other forums, and i am very glad that for 99% of the time the replies here @ rf are polite and assertive.

i just think that a differant title for these threads would help ease the heat off ya santa.

the main point is that turf srubbers, set up like this, work to reduce n and p. maybe a stricter adherance to this main point, instead of what this device has done on your system, such as replacing the skimmer and such, will not cause such a uprising...lol... although i do find it funny when i read peoples freak out about your title. i guess i just took your title as a grain of salt, and when i read your experience, and seeeeen that this method was used in comercial farming operations i knew that this method had real substance.

there are pros and cons to every device and method. this method, like all other methods, need to include these pros and cons while proforming and keeping a routine of tank husbandry.

 

[freetareef]

daytona: I got all my ats stuuf at wal mart, except the pvc i got at lowes, and the tank devider i got at my lfs. just ask one of the employees for help finding a cheap clamp on light socket with a reflector. mine were $8 i think...

 

[trido]

"wow...principles before personalitys, thats how a post should be read, considered and replied to imho, for the greater good and learning of the forum community."

that was my first thought as i read through the posts on the other forums, and i am very glad that for 99% of the time the replies here @ rf are polite and assertive.

i just think that a differant title for these threads would help ease the heat off ya santa.

the main point is that turf srubbers, set up like this, work to reduce n and p. maybe a stricter adherance to this main point, instead of what this device has done on your system, such as replacing the skimmer and such, will not cause such a uprising...lol... although i do find it funny when i read peoples freak out about your title. i guess i just took your title as a grain of salt, and when i read your experience, and seeeeen that this method was used in comercial farming operations i knew that this method had real substance.

there are pros and cons to every device and method. this method, like all other methods, need to include these pros and cons while proforming and keeping a routine of tank husbandry.

Very well put and level headed post Freetareef. I agree. RF is a very laid back site and I enjoy it here because of that.
I only wish Santa monica had posted this last January. I probably would have built two or three of these instead of having my pathetic 65G fuge that doesnt grow much other than aptaisia.
BE sure to keep us posted on how things are going regarding these algea scrubbers. Ive read about them in the past but this is definately a more efficient design than most that Ive seen requiring less water volume and much less floor space.
Happy reefing to you.........

 

[SantaMonica]

Freeta... Yes but you can't change the title of a thread.

 

[SantaMonica]

Part 1 of 2



2 Weeks Overload At the LFS!

One day I was in my LFS, and he was complaining of N and P being "crazy high" in one of his FO retail displays. I looked at what he was currently doing for filtration... G4 skimmer, bio balls, Phosban reactor, 2 Ocean Clear mechanical filters, and a UV on a 300 gal FO display, and he is feeding 16 cubes a day. He is currently building a custom acrylic waterfall box turf filter like I outlined in the first page of my RC post, but it's not finished yet. He says he has to keep N and P under control by changing 100g every two weeks. The bio balls seem mostly under water; to me, that would reduce their power. Also he thinks he might need to remove the mechanical filters.

Since my bucket-build thread was done, and since I completed the pics of it for the first week, I thought it was wasting its potential trying to filter my 90 since my 90 also has the original pre-grown turf bucket already working. So I asked the LFS guy if he'd like to borrow my bucket. He said yes, so I went right away to get it, and told him to measure N and P meanwhile. I had to wrap the screen in wet towels to keep it from drying out, but otherwise the whole bucket was light and easy to carry in the car. When I got there he showed me his test (Red Sea, I think), and they were deep dark colors. But I wanted to use Salifert so they'd correspond with my tank, so I used my kits to measure: N = 50, P = Off the chart (very deep dark blue). His main goal was to stop the daily rise in N and P, especially N, which had been rising an average of 1 per day.

So we set the bucket on top of his sump so it would just drain down, and hooked up one of his pumps to the waterfall pipe (no wavemaker timer), and hooked up the lights to one of his timers (18 hours on), and away it went. Here are the day-by-day measurements:


....................N...........P.............Comment
.
day 1..........50...........1.5+............
day 2..........50...........1.5+............
day 3..........50...........1.5+............
day 4..........50...........1.5+.........Cleaned; Iron added
day 5..........*............*...............Not measured; Original diatoms gone
day 6..........*............*...............Not measured; Waiting for WC
day 7..........*............*...............Not measured; he did 100g WC
day 8..........50...........1.5+.........WC did almost nothing, N and P same
day 9..........45?..........1.5+.........Screen about 75% full
day 10.........45...........1.5+.........Screen about 80% full
day 11..........*............*..............Store Closed Labor Day
day 12..........*............*..............Store Closed
day 13.........40?..........1.5+........95% full; bottom completely full
day 14.........35!..........1.5+........Starting to develop spots; Cleaned


And here are the pics. Note that the in-bucket pics were done with the water still flowing, since after crawling under wooden beams to get to the bucket, I had forgotten to unplug the pump; so thereafter all pics needed the pump running so they would match:

First, here is the left half of the display, and the right half (all are one system connected together):

. . . .

Here's the bio balls in the sump; Note high water level:

[pic limit]
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSbioBalls.jpg


His G4 skimmer and Phosban reactor:

[pic limit]


His mechanical filters:

[pic limit]


Here's the bucket as delivered, with screen wrapped to stay wet:

The bucket was put behind the wood shelves, on top of the sump, between the tanks:

Day 0: This is the screen as delivered, after the one-week test thread was finished:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay00.jpg


Day 1, Cleaned bottom of bucket:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay01.jpg


Day 2:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay02.jpg


Day 3:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay03.jpg


Day 3, Removed:

(hi-res was blurry)


Day 3, Cleaned:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay03cleaned.jpg


Day 4:

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay04.jpg


Day 5: Skip
Day 6: Skip

Day 7:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay07.jpg

 

[SantaMonica]

Part 2 of 2:



Day 8:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay08.jpg


Day 9:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay09.jpg


Day 10:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay10.jpg


Day 11: Skip
Day 12: Skip

Day 13:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay13.jpg


Day 14:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay14.jpg


Day 14, Removed (flash); Removed (no-Flash):

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay14removed.jpg


Day 14, Closeup of spots:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay14closeup.jpg


Day 14, Cleaning:

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay14cleaning.jpg


Day 14, Cleaned:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay14cleaned.jpg


Day 14, reinstalled:

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/LFSscreenDay14reinstalled.jpg


Results:

Now, this bucket is way undersized for this application. It's only 144 sq in, with just average CFL lights, and the lights are not right-up-next to the screen (due to bucket design) the way they should be for optimum performance. His tank is 300 gallons, highly fed, with no rock and no sand. But the idea is not to see if N and P can be reduced; instead it's to see how fast a screen can grow with basically unlimited nutrients. Secondarily, yes, I'd like to see how much of a dent an undersized screen can make in N and P, as long as it is cleaned properly. (The acrylic box he's building is 300 sq in, and is only 4 inches thick... he's going to place several 150 watts along the vertical walls.)

P was always off the scale, although it was indeed getting to be a lighter blue. But since blue blocks a lot of light, you cannot tell how much off the scale it is because it starts looking gray.

In the first few days of the bucket test, there was major green growth. And the growth was in clumps, as opposed to how it grew in my system, which was more of an even film of brown and green. My guess is that since nutrients are so high in his tank, once a single spot of green starts on the screen, that algae is no longer limited by trying to attach itself; it now is only limited by how fast it can multiply (which with unlimited nutrients, is astronomically fast). I can only imagine if the bucket had proper lighting (like his new acrylic box will), how fast/much it would grow.

His main objective (not mine) was indeed N and P reduction. So on day 3, I figured I'd clean the screen even though it still had bare spots on it (it had only had a week to grow on my tank). The screen is not his only filter, so I did not have to clean just one side. Pulling out the screen, it was apparent that the stronger growth was on the upper part, near the light, showing once again the importance of strong light. I cleaned both sides and put it back; for some reason it cleaned all the way down to the bare screen, not leaving much behind. I used a toothbrush, but didn't scrub that hard. We also added some iron for the first time ever in this tank.

Disappointment on Day 5. Hardly any growth. I think what happend was the the base-growth that was on the screen when I brought it was from the one-week test on my 90, which means it would be a certain type of algae (diatoms, I believe). However his tank has different chemistry and as you saw in the pics started off with green hair clumps right away. So the base of brown diatoms died, and thus the screen basically went back to brand new in his tank.

This being the case, he could not wait any longer and said he needs to change water to get the numbers down. He did a 100 gal change (on 300 total volume) on Day 6, and I came back on Day 7 to measure: Almost no change! I think he's got detritus in the bio balls or the mechanical filter, or somewhere. Nevertheless, it's still a good nutrient source for my growth test.

Growth is solid again by Day 8. Have not seen this type of growth before... big clumps of dark brown slimey stuff, right next to areas of empty screen. Mine had always filled in evenly, but this is doing it in clumps. Almost looks like someone threw mud on the screen. Regardless, the flow goes right over the clumps with no problem. This time, I'm going to let the screen fill up before I clean it, otherwise only the same areas will start growing. Only after previously-grown areas fill up will the empty areas start growing.

By Day 13, the bottom of the screen was packed, and the top had only a few empty places left. The N test looked like it was coming down, but I did not really expect it too since the tank was so heavily loaded. I wanted to clean the screen that day, but the LFS guy was impressed that the N was not rising like it usually does, and even possibly dropping. Day 14, the end of two weeks, the N actually tested about 35. He was amazed, since it normally goes up every day. He wanted to keep it as-is, but I could see some spots developing on the screen from the pods, so I said we better clean it now.

After pulling the screen out, it was easy to see the spots. It had been 10 days since cleaning; way overdue. Definitely time to clean under tap water. The feel of the algae was amazing... like tar spilled on the beach that had been drying for a while. The screen seemed to weigh a full pound. I put it in the sink and just pushed the algae off the screen with my fingers (not fingernails). This was not turf, but it was thick and heavy. There is no timer on this setup, just constant flow, so I'm not really expecting turf to develop anyway.

So I put it back into operation. He's still waiting on his custom acrylic box to be delivered, so until then this bucket will have to work alone.

 

[trido]

you can't change the title of a thread.

And we can all agree. That really sucks sometimes.

 

[freetareef]

cool. hey santa...mine is fed buy my overflow so it always has water flowing over it. does this mean i wont get turf? also i haven't cleaned it yet, is it time? i feel like a kid waiting for my mom to wake up so i can open my presents!

 

[SantaMonica]

It probably does, but it's not proven. And, I does not matter... all algae eat N and P.

Yes go ahead and clean. Rub very light with your finger. Don't press hard. Leave a film of algae. Take pics before and after. What's N and P?

 

[SantaMonica]

Today's screen of the day is the simplest one so far, complete with postitive test results. He says:

"After 4 days running, i has a green hair algae growth around 3-4 cm... and i didn't see any brown diatom algae. i use OSRAM 23W tornado day light. in the picture...this is 6 days result... the algae is a brown color... but the real is a green hair algae.... and this is just a test... so i use a small screen.. but i already see the result here. i didn't rub the algae to start... just has 24/7 lightning time. i just check my N yesterday [Day 10]... it's down greatly.. from 50 ppm become 35 ppm... and my P remover has work slower.... i always change the P remover once a week.... but it's already 2 weeks i didn't changed."

 

[SeaMonster]

Here is some pix of before and after cleaning. just rinsed it off in the sink, tried not to get too much off but some of it came off very easy.

Before Cleaning:

After Cleaning:

 

[Brewmaster1]

Hey there sant monica,

I want to incorporate this into my 29 biocube. I have seen the pics of the 5.5 ( i believe that is what size that was.) My only problem is it will be one sided and i can't fit 30 sq. in. in the back. Do you have any suggestions? Will this filter work with less area? I really would like it to fit in the existing area.

 

[SantaMonica]

Good cleaning there varga the sea monster You should be droppin' N's and P's by now.

Brew: What is the 5.5? Do you mean the nano thread?...

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38240

... that screen was way small for the test, and did bring N and P to zero in three weeks, however it needed cleaning every two days almost. Smaller screen do work, but they fill up much faster, and when they fill up they stop working. So if one sided, you really need twice the space: 60 sq inches.

However if you use a bucket, two sides, it's just 30 inches (5 X 6.inches), and fits nicely into a 1 gal bucket with plenty of room for lights on both sides. But yes, it'll work with less area if you need to.

 

[SantaMonica]

Another Reader Hits A New Low!

Jski711 on the RS site give us his report today, after a trip back from the LFS for testing. Here are the dates and activities that led up to today:

8/19: "i was going to order [a pre-grown screen] from inland but i've never seen these sheets before and don't know how rigid they are and how to "hang" one. any ideas would be great. I have a 75g, 36g sump and a 15g plumbed into that same system. I have a mag 12 return pump."

8/20: "it literally took all of 45 minutes [to build it] once i had the materials. i bought 65w equivelant pc bulbs but they are 2700k"

8/21: "i can't believe how well this diy thing worked out. i have notied my ph raise up about .15 in a few hours since this has been on. The piece [of pre-grown turf from IA] i got i cut in half and is 2 sided now, thanks to some tie wraps. i also bought 2 100w cf [equivalent] lights to replace the ones i had."

8/23: "i notice that some red algae seems to be growing pretty fast. it doesn't look like the turf but thats just an observation."

8/27: "first cleaning. i just used my fingernails"

9/3: "well i just finished my 2nd cleaning today. i have noticed that in my main display that i haven't had to use my scraper to scrape off the glass, i usually had to do this every few days because i'd get that green algae begining to grow. i've also notice that the turf that was on the screen in the first place seems to continue to spread over the screen."

9/7: "To my surprise i had my water tested at the lfs for phosphates and nitrates. they use the hanna photometer or whatever its called for phosphate. my phosphates were at .03!!!!!! my nitrates were barely detectable, a very slight pink came out on the test. so IMO this scrubber is working like CRAZY!!! I honestly didn't think that this was going to work as well as it does but to all the people that thought this was some sort of a gimmick i challenge you to give this a try, you won't be dissapointed!!!! thanks to santamonica for posting this up and thanks to inland for the "pregrown" screen!! i can say i've been feeding heavily and this is the lowest i've ever seen my phosphates!!!"

 

[Brewmaster1]

Yep that's the one. Okay the time I can give I can't imagine it taking more than a few minuets to clean the screen every other day when i get home. If you think this would be a good experiment i will give it a shot. If I will be wasting my time then i will figure out some way to have another device. I know they are simple but in a nano you don't have many options. (not a lot of room for pumps)

 

[SantaMonica]

Ok brew if you can set a CFL down on the screen, then go that route. Then later you can figure a way to mount the light that looks more appealing. The example nano I used for that thread is still using the same light in the same spot; it's 125 watt equivalent, 23 real watts, 1250 lumens, and it lights up the tank too (mushrooms and zoos growing now).

 

[Brewmaster1]

Okay now I am sorry for being the dummy here but... How are you finding out the info on the light bulbs ?

 

[Brewmaster1]

Sorry just too lazy to read the whole thread

 

[daytonaconnecti]

thanks i will look again tomarrow, had no luck today

i was at walmart today, and found two 23w r40 compact fluorescents flood lights, didnt say full spectrum, or any info on the k rating, will those do?