need help!

[kelly]

So heres my situaction, last sat. i added a new beckett skimmer and a ca reactor. I set my bubble count to 13 a min effluent to 40 drips a min. By like tues. my ph was down to 7.9so i started dripping it in a container with a air stone and it still dropped. I shut down the reactor . Between yesterday and today i recalibrated my (new)pinpoint p/h controller and did a 30 gal. water change. My alk is 4.23 dkh 11.8 calc. 400 ppm. With my alk at that level how can my p/h be 7.6? I'm sure i calibrated it right and all my fish and corals look and are acting ok. BY MY TEST KIT MY P/H IS 8.2 . whats my next step?

 

[wrightme43]

How old is your calibration solution? I think it was Boomer who had done testing on calibration solutions and found 2 that were good, and the rest unnamed that were not correct. I bet you are having a problem with your calibration fluid. Maybe you could check your tapwater with probe and test kit, and maybe check fresh kalkwasser with both as well. I am assuming you are using a good test kit and that is not what is off. Steve

 

[clayswim]

I assume your Pinpoint controller reads the calibration solutions correctly? If so I would trust your monitor over the test kits, especially certain kits. With your alkalinity that high it's highly probable that you simply have too much CO2 in the water. You might try opening a window and let in some outside air, or better yet keep the air pump outside and use outside air to run your skimmer. Indoor air is often high in CO2 anyway, so it becomes difficult to scrub excess CO2 out.

If that doesn't work it may be necessary to cut back on your CO2 bubble rate, and if needed cut back on the effluent rate to ensure your reactor works with the decreased CO2.

Clayton

 

[clayswim]

I forgot something

While not ideal, a pH of 7.9 won't cause problems with fish or coral. It's certainly on the bottom end, but not so much that it will harm anything. Having said that, it's far safer to have it in the 8.1 to 8.3 range.

Clayton

 

[NaH2O]

Kelly - so according to the test kit, your pH is 8.2? What time of day was it reading 7.9? Is your pH monitor plugged into the wall or is it battery? Sometimes, they can get interference when plugged into the wall. When you calibrated the monitor, was the calibration solution old? do you know what brand of calibration solution you used? Also, when I calibrate my monitor, I take the fluid temberature and look at the back of the packet (pinpoint) to make sure I know what the actual calibration is supposed to be. Rinse the probe in RO/DI water inbetween the 2 solutions will also keep from lowering or elevating the fluids.

 

[wrightme43]

Now this is only my opinion, if the co2 level was high enough in a house to change the ph of water I believe you would be very sick. I may be wrong and I have been many times before. I just cant see how that could happen and people still be walking around in the house. You could be dripping enough co2 into the water from the co2 tank to lower the ph. I was on submarines and the co2 level would get very high and the o2 level would get low, and we sure could tell. It was very uncomfortable untill the co2 scrubber got fixed. In a house no matter how sealed there is still a signifigent flow of air into and out of the home. Doors open and close, stove vent fans, bathroom exhaust fans, dryer vents. If the home was sealed tight and you exhausted air out side it would pull a vacum on the house and your ears would pop like on a airplane. Steve

 

[clayswim]

CO2 levels don't have to be very high for it to affect your pH levels, just high enough so it becomes difficult for your skimmer to create the gas exchange. If you do a search you'll find a lot of information about indoor CO2 levels and pH, it's an actual problem that happens especially in the summer; and mostly in newer houses that are more tightly sealed. Here's a quote from Advanced Aquarist by Randy Holmes-Farley...

"High indoor carbon dioxide can also apparently lead to low pH problems in many tanks. Respiration by people and pets, the use of un-vented appliances burning natural gas (e.g., ovens and stoves) and the use of CaCO3/CO2 reactors can lead to high indoor carbon dioxide levels. The level of carbon dioxide can easily be more than twice that of exterior air, and this excess can substantially lower the pH. This problem is especially severe in newer, more airtight homes. It is unlikely to be a problem in homes like mine where you can feel the wind blowing around old window frames."

The link to the article is http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2002/chem.htm

The problem has been found to be more common in the last couple of years. Houses running air conditioners and houses in colder areas that have better seals on the doors and windows have worse cases. Using fresh air has been found to decrease CO2 in tanks within a couple of days, which raises the pH of the water. It's an easy to fix, and apparently common problem that doesn't hurt to try.

Clayton

 

[kelly]

ok for the record i too live in a older home , and even though my central air has been on for the last month and a half or so i don't feel in my gut that the house has to much co2 , also have a 9 and 13 year old running in and out. I used coralife calibration fluid nikki and this morning at 5am before work i ran a ext. cord from across the room to see if it was interference my controller said the ph was 7.5 then at 4:30 pm after work 7.9. im just getting a feeling that my controller or probe is bad? also when i dripped kalk yesterday for makeup water the ph didn't raise except like 7.90 to about 7.98 and i dripped 2 gals. SO HERES A BIG QUESTION . If it was that low what would my fish ,corals and clams look and act like now?

 

[NaH2O]

kelly - curious as to what happens if you move the monitor away from the tank? or what happens to the pH if you take a cup of water outside then test it after 10 minutes or so? Also, what brand of pH test kit? I would either double check your pH with a quality test kit like Salifert brand, or take it in to get checked. The article Steve mentioned earlier about calibration solutions is here: A Comparison of pH Calibration Buffers, by RH-F. I need to read through the article that Clayton linked.

 

[kelly]

nikki, i'm going to set a glass of water out side while were at my 9yr olds ball game . i'll have to have it tested tomorrow at lfs as i just have a cheep ph test always relied more on my salfiert alk test if alk was ok then ph couldnt be to far off.be bak on later with results from cup of water out side.

 

[Boomer]

I agree pretty much with Clay and Nikki. Here are some comments.

1. I do not buy your monitor is correct. I would believe in the pH test kit for now. I would use a SeaTest pH kit that is corrected for seawater and made for seawater.

2. Get some PinPoint calibration solution as we know it is on target, to recalibrate the meter to make sure we know where you are at.

3. Ca reactors often have a low pH, due to the excessive CO2 that is often used. It is the single reason behind using duel Ca reactors, to remove the excess CO2 that is suppressing the pH. It looks like maybe high room air CO2 is also affecting things. Others drip kalk in the tank to raise the pH back up. Try tweaking the reactor once you know what the pH really is. Here is some thing to read on reactors.

A Guide to Using Calcium Reactors
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-05/sh/feature/index.htm

4. How is your pH meter powered, AC or DC. AC often effects these monitors due to RF interference. These units should always run on the battery option.

 

[kelly]

ok everyone controller runs on ac .my reactor is a duel chamber and i havent had it runnung since sat morning .ive come to the conculsion that for some reason the controller isnt reading right. i put a glass of tank water outside for 2 hrs.and tested it with no change in my ph.i tried to recalibrate it and couldnt get the slope to go up to 10,either its my calibration fluids or my controller. i didnt think my house was tight enough for it to be co2 in my house.will go get some pinpoint fluids in the next few days and a salfiertor seatest kit even dripping kalk wont raise it on the controller

 

[clayswim]

Yeah, after hearing your last readings I have to agree that you monitor sounds a bit questionable. How old is the probe?

If your pH is actually 7.5 your fish would most likely be showing signs of stress. These could include cloudiness of the skin, increased respiration and flashing around in the tank. A pH of 7.9 on the other hand isn't low enough to cause problems in fish or inverts; it's just a good idea to keep it higher in the safe zone. Fluctuating pH can cause problems though even within the safe zone. For example, if the level is jumping between 7.9 and 8.4 it can cause problems; even though both levels when stable are perfectly safe. Complicated enough? lol

I completely agree with Nikki and Boomer, you should get both a good test kit and some new calibration fluid from a good company (like Pinpoint or Milwaukee). This will give you a good idea what the actual pH of your water is. If at that point your pH is actually low we can discuss the cause and cure. I'm getting the feeling, however, that your pH might be fine.

Clayton

 

[kelly]

well the darn thing is brand new. i bought a new skimmer and reactor pkg. from my reef creations , iam really happy with the bekett skimmer and the workmanship on the reactor is good i just cant run the reactor till i get this ph sorted out. sent a email to andy at mrc about the controller a bit ago

 

[Boomer]

kelly

On another note you should fix your sig .....]... is missing from the end

KELLY

 

[kelly]

talked to lou dell at pinpoint today to sum up the conversation coralife calibration fluids stink. he suggested to geta better calibration fluid .02 or better accuracy recalibrate and call him back if it dosent change it hell send me a new controller. must be haveing one of those moron cycles mojo posted about . on another note my 9yr old won her softball game last nite. oh yea boomer is grandmas still open ? ilved in the twin cities back in the 80's and we skied spirit mt .and drank at a bar called grandmas? good times i really liked duluth.

 

[Boomer]

Yes Kelly, Grandmas is still there. We just had the Grandmas Marathon, one of the biggest in the country. There are now 3 Grandmas in Duluth