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[jnarowe]

Thank you for the post Cy. This is what reef keepers need to hear about. I get it all the time in my store since I sell import foods. Demand and risk are extremely important to importers and distributors, especially when the dollar is taking a dive. Inventories shrink to manage risk, and the consumer gets peeved they can't get what they want.

It's not even worth paying a clerk to ring up a sale that only makes you $2. I do it all day long with cigarettes, beer, wine, pop, etc.

I wouldn't agree about IO, but that's another thread. What I do believe is that demand is growing for higher quality products as more and more reef keepers are asking the hard questions and testing their additives ( like me ) to find out what is really going into their systems. Unfortunately, there is economic downward pressure at an inopportune time for all the new "better" products being released now.

We'll see how it goes. You are doing all that you can do at this point and hopefully as the economy turns around, we can develop a better distribution channel here in the NW.

 

[Jan]

Here is a link to the Tunze Salt, Jonathan:

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=T7008.000&Category_Code=Salt

Be warned that the D-D salt has high PO4 levels; it's made by the same company that makes Red Sea Coral Pro in Israel. It's an evaporative manufacturing process. I stopped using RSCP because every time I did a water change, I'd have a coating of microalgae on my tank walls the next day. So I was wary of the D-D because it said it was also an evaporative, Red Sea source, yada yada. Sure enough, I had the same problem with it that I had with RSCP.

People who are growing LPS rather than SPS tend to have good experiences with these salts though.

My experience with RBS was different. No microalgae outbreak, just coral death. I lost a few species over the course of two 10% WC's. I posted about this on the Zeovit forum, and although no one would say anything about it on the thread I started, I had two users tell me privately that their corals also died after switching to RBS, and that the dying didn't stop until they got the RBS out of their systems with enough WC's. Now, this is not everyone's experience. Some Zeo users really like it. But the theory of those of us who had bad outcomes with it was that KZ's salt manufacturer doesn't have good quality control. Just a guess, of course. But when you pay $100 for a bucket of salt, you expect better results.

 

[jnarowe]

Hmmm...thanks for the post and link Jan. Sorry to hear you lost some of your sweet corals.

If it's $27 for 63g @ 1.020, then we are looking at more than $100 for 200g worth of salt right? It's interesting that it is priced at a density of 1.020, but the assay is at 1.025. Am I missing some underlying reason for that? Seems confusing to me.

What is the connection between evaporative salt processing and PO4?

 

[Jan]

What is the connection between evaporative salt processing and PO4?

I suspect that there is a lot of "stuff" that ends up in the dried salt...natural, but higher-nutrient sediments or dead microfauna or something.

If it's $27 for 63g @ 1.020, then we are looking at more than $100 for 200g worth of salt right? It's interesting that it is priced at a density of 1.020, but the assay is at 1.025. Am I missing some underlying reason for that? Seems confusing to me.

I didn't notice this difference but I'd have to assume it's to make it look slightly less expensive than it really is. Those German salts are not cheap. The Tunze salt is made by the same manufacturer that makes hWMarine Mix, available at Dr's F&S. This one is "only" about $54 a bucket plus $10 shipping. I don't remember if it's a 160g bucket or a 200g bucket.

Hey, this weekend I picked up a box of the PetCo brand of salt (used to be called Aquatic Gardens). Apparently the parameters are exceptable for Zeovit: 8 dhk, 410 Ca, 1250 Mg if I remember right.

I'd probably be on board with the folks using IO if it didn't have such drastically high alk. No way I can get behind a salt with 12 dhk or over 500 in Ca (Coralife, Oceanic...)

 

[barrierreefcf]

I'll run some PO4 tests on the D-D on monday. We'll see what we get.

 

[jnarowe]

hmmmm...dead microfauna. That's an interesting idea.

If you would just drop that stupid Zeo system, you could use a "better" salt! :lol:

Cy: Thanks for that.

 

[barrierreefcf]

Mixed up 5 gallons of RO/DI water with D-D salt. I used the Elos PO4 kit.

PO4 RO/DI water- 0.0
PO4 mixed- .05

I would really like to use a colorimeter to re-test D-D as well as all the other salts we have here. Just to be as accurate as possible

 

[jnarowe]

ouch. when you get the small ones in, LMK, and I will try a couple of other tests. I rely heavily on the Merck test myself. I still haven't gotten a colorimeter as I am waiting for a new one to be released.

One thing that can be done with that range of PO4 is to mix up a batch, aerate and run a small GFO unit for a few days before doing a water change.

 

[barrierreefcf]

Thought we'd test Instant Ocean for comparisons sake.

PO4 Mixed- ~.03

None of this means anything serious until we measure with an instrument capable of smaller and more accurate increments.

 

[jnarowe]

still good info.

 

[Scooterman]

I'd like to see the results with the colorimeter If you do test them with one, that would be a good test for sure, you could check many variables with that including alk, ca, mg & basically anything you want.

 

[jnarowe]

Most of them do not do all our "standard" tests or not within the range we need. But a coupl eof companies are working to address this.

 

[Jan]

what is this new model of Hanna colormeter you're describing Jonathan? It is a Hanna, right? (I've always wanted one...gee, maybe if I quit buying $100 salts I could afford one! :lol

FWIW, people on the Z-forum using the Hanna meter have reported PO4 readings of .07 and .09 on the newly mixed D-D salt.

 

[jnarowe]

It's the HI 83200-2008 but there is one parameter that still needs tweaing.

Unfortunately, I would not put a salt with that high of PO4 in my tank. Even my Chinese salt has a zero with the Merck kit. I am going to ask Phil about this.

 

[Jan]

If Phil is the representative at Deltec, a member posted the response from them when he wrote to them about his .07 PO4 test results.

Aquarium Solutions ended up publishing a response to him on their FAQ page. The most direct reference to the question asked is this part here:

Now, it is a well known phenomenon in the Red Sea that once in a year, the currents change dramatically and they bring very deep water to the surface. These deep water are rich with CaPO4-and FePO4- and there are times that the dried salt may have some traces of them. But be sure that, the QC control at the extraction plant never accept levels above 0.05 ppm!!! Each batch of raw NaCl is tested under spectrophotometer under standard method 4500-4.

Here's the web page that came from:

http://www.theaquariumsolution.com/node/481

Here's a thread on the Zeovit forum where people discuss their experiences with this salt:

http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13048&page=3&highlight=D-D+salt

 

[jnarowe]

Thank you for the links Jan. The Phil I am referring to is the D-D guy and he said he would get back to me with some more info. very nice guy. I have been talking to him about some other stuff, but originally had contacted him regarding distribution of this salt in our area.

 

[barrierreefcf]

So we tested the D-D salt for PO4 with a Hanna Colorimeter and we got some screwball results.

.10
.12
.05
.14

We couldn't duplicate any measurement?? We tested the systems and got consistently low readings. Not sure what to make of this but its safe to say there is a higher PO4 content than IO.

I started experimenting with water changes. We run our Elos tank pretty low on nutrients and from time to time our Zoanthids suffer from it. Our Lunar Eclipses, PPE, and a few others suddenly took a serious downturn. They were looking anemic and shrinking. I figured I'd do a water change and see if it helped. I used the D-D and guess what...the Zoas were fully opened within 2 days. I had Chris do another change a few days later...pow...the zoas were bigger than before and seem to be multiplying again. I'm guessing a little PO4 was what they needed. We'd been doing regular water changes with I/O up to this point so its not like the water change itself solved the problem. Obviously there could be some other trace element that may be present in higher quantities than IO but the results are ...well...the results. Articulate..I know.

IMO this salt is great for well stocked LPS/Softy tanks that run really clean an have no microalgae issues. This little dose of PO4 is quickly sucked up and our corals responded well. It'd probably be just the same in a well stocked, clean SPS tank...but...just hard for me to advocate excess PO4 introduction.

One person's .02

 

[jnarowe]

Thank you so much for taking the time to test it. It just seems to me that a higher-end salt would be much lower in PO4, but I do agree there could be additional elements in the salt that the zoanthids responded to. Perhhaps even iodine?

Did you test it for anything else?

 

[Jan]

I read a post on RC about a person whose zoanthids were not growing or doing well and they responded in a similar positive way when she switched to Red Sea Coral Pro Salt (also with a higher PO4 content). So that's interesting. I agree that this would be a very good salt for an LPS/Softy tank or if someone's SPS tank is "too low" in nutrients.