Nitrifing/denitrifing misconceptions

[NaH2O]

Hmmm.....I know I'm a klutz, so falling off the log is pretty darn easy, as I've fallen down the stairs on occasion. I've never considered a log falling on me......Is that my problem? I thought of it more as Mike hit me in the head with a log.

 

[mojoreef]

The Falling off the log is is a Dr. Ron saying about how simple a DSB is.lol

My lord - where do you come up with these threads at 7:42 on a Sunday morning? Ouch!

MzW I get up for work at 4am everyday..so sleeping in just isnt an option any more, hehehe

What I'd REALLY like to know is what neat things can I put into my tank that will reduce the ammonia - nitrite - nitrate "pollution problem" in the first place? Populate the tank & clean it - kill two birds with one stone!

Thiers really not some kind of a creature that will do it for you. Thats where filtration concepts come into place. Bacteria will reduce nitrogen based products as you have listed, the problem is that its a limited process, it can only process so much of it, so high bioloads are not an option when going with a totally biological filtration system. That is kind of the thyme of the other thread in this forum called a sand sytem that works.

Mike

 

[NaH2O]

So, considering there are many aspects of aquariums that differ from the "natural reef", how then would our bacterial populations differ? Here I am speaking of sand beds. It is obviously very complex - all the different processes that take place there (not to mention the rest of the tank). Since the natural reef is so vast - do these processes take place in the substrate, more in live rock, both, or it is so different that there is no comparison?

 

[aquariumdebacle]

Baffled?

O.K. Mikey,
Let's see where to start? Hmm, your week spot! Your mixing ecology and biology. Now this is of course true in the systems as well as nature, but we need to be precise. This is after all the Advanced section of the class.

In ecology there are four groups of bacteria: faculative aerobic, faculative anaerobic. obligate aerobic and obligate anaerobic. Did I miss any.

Regarding biology there are a myriad of strains, species, and types. Let us not forget the protizoans, animals and fungus that can inhabit all of these areas.

What we are really after is the "miracle system" that requires no input, effort or money to set-up and maintain. The system we are promised everytime that a new gadget or trend in the industry comes along.

Here it is! What you need to do is to fill a tank with water and then add some sand and/or rocks to your vessel. Add water to compensate for evaporation and you will never have to touch it again! All you really have to do is change the priority of the organisms that you want to keep. Love hair algae and cyanos? just add light or put it near a window.

Everything you put into a closed system must come out in one way or another. Energy does fall as entropy is gained so some of the stuff we stick in there is lost due to exothermic reactions(heat.) Very little though and not enough to forgoe the routine maintenance of a system.

We're now back to where we started. What do we need to do to lessen our work load. First design the system correctly for the organisms that you are interested in keeping. Then give those organisms what they need to survive and lastly do your chores and clean up after your pets!

Sorry this isn't mush help in the "miracle department" but reefs have been thriving without our calculations and interpretaions for a while. Once you have decided on a group of organisms from the same environment that you wish to keep, then go about the task of desighning and caring for those organisms. A little of this, alittle of that, and let's see what else we can stick in here only works for chefs and even then they must be good and knowledgable.

 

[mojoreef]

Ok I guess I kind of killed this thread with that last post, rofl .Let me see if I can be a little better at explaining it.
Ok in a sediment filter (ie a dsb/ssb/cc/lr) things do not quite happen the way most folks understand it. This is one of the main problems with maintaining one. The nitrifing/denitrifing/reducing/oxidising is all bacterial driven, nothing else, just bacteria. Forget about sand bed critters, forget about cukes, or blennies or what have you, its all about the bacteria.
Now in the sediment system folks tend to follow the zonal thing, as in ammonia/nitrite bacteria live in the aerobic zone and denitrifing bacteria live in the anaerobic zone. Ok you need to forget that, although it is true it is but one branch of a multi-armed process. You need to look at a sediment bed as an ever moveing continious state of flux. Every area on and in the substraight is always changing in all conditions (ie the enviroment is changing). In the bed thier are a many many differing strains of bacteria. they will come to the for front based on the conditions at hand. If the enviroment is skewed to thier liking they will dominate.
Ok I am getting to deep again, lol. Nitrification can happen at any level in your bed, so can denitrification, it all depends on the enviroment created, in the wild alot occurs in the water column (but that is another story, heheh). If certain conditions favor one bacterial strain ovver another it will dominate, its byproduct will then again allow a different bacteria to dominate as a result of its activities. these byproducts can make it or break it as far as if you will get any exportation or if you will be plagued by algae/cyano and so on so it pertains.
An example. Jeaubert plenum in Monico. at first it was closed, testing observed that ammonia and ammonium was present at almost all levels, bu not in the tank. With the presence of ammonia in the bed it would not allow denitrifing bacteria to tanke nitrate to gas, (ammmonia inhibits the first enzyme in denitrification) .in stead other strains took the nitrate and converted it into ammonium and put it back into cycle just above nitrite. Thus this filter lost its ability to export nitrogen products and became an ever growing nitrogen sink. .


Ok lets see if that sparks anyone, lol or if its doomed to die a slow death.


Mike

 

[mojoreef]

LOL Dan this threads sits for a week, what are the chances of us posting at the same time.lol

In regards to your post I want to be the first one to congradulate you. I have never seen a person write such a long post with such nice words and not say a darn thing. rolf


Mike

 

[NaH2O]

LOL Dan this threads sits for a week, what are the chances of us posting at the same time.lol

Hey!....What am I...chopped liver? I posted up there yesterday.

Basically, what you are saying is it is really really complex

 

[aquariumdebacle]

My Kharma ran over your Dogma

Yea, my point exactly It's goin' nowherebecause of the lack of practicality to the info. Great insights but little useful information. it all just ends up being you'r-in

 

[MikeS]

Basically, what you are saying is it is really really complex

yep! :lol:

I like to think I have a better than average understanding of biology...my last 2 years of college I majored in biology with hopes of going to med school...but all this thread is doing is showing me how much I've forgotten since then (long time ago):lol:

Yes, the biological dynamics of an aquarium are more complex than the ammoina-nitrite-nitrate cycle we all learned about as noobs. Back to my origional question several posts ago...what impact does this have on the average tank keeper in your opinion?

Complex systems are by their nature difficult to predict and/or control...how much control would you say the average tank keeper have over this system? Aside from feeding and removal of wastes, I'd say not a great deal anyway:lol:

Mike

 

[mojoreef]

Yea, my point exactly It's goin' nowherebecause of the lack of practicality to the info. Great insights but little useful information. it all just ends up being you'r-in

Ah Dan thats what I love about ya.

Ok why dont we all use bioballs wet drys on our reefs?? because the enviroment we create skews to the formation of only a few bacterial strains that give us an end product that doesnt work in our reefs. This same principle applies is substraight filtration. sand type substraights are not just sand/cc with water flowing through it they are filled with enzymes, byproducts, and a host of other things all massed together kinda like snot. This biofilm is in itself its own enviroment, and can occur any any depth and at any location on or in your reef. They key to the end result you want is to skew the enviroment to give you what you wish, or not to allow it to be skewed into something that is not going to work.

Mike

 

[MikeS]

ok I see where you are going with this...

MikeS

 

[NaH2O]

OOOOOHHHHHHHH! DUH! I was not thinking bioballs at all, as I don't have them. (OK that sounded bad, but it is true) - my thought process did not lead to the bacterial habitat that they change....DUH!

 

[big t]

I have Bio-Balls, heh heh

 

[aquariumdebacle]

I have balls

The problem I have with that explenation is that the nitrates can't get to the deeper parts of the sand any easier thatn they can get to the deeper parts of the rocks. Fish don't live in rocks. It seems to me that if the bacteria are in the tank they are going to get the food. If your explanation is correct that they are a matrix of organisms then the palcement of the bacteria would seem secondary.

What we really need from this thread are ideas on encouraging bacteria to live, all of them.

Bacteria thrive in a trickle filter. This does not provide much information about other types of bacteria, so what I need to know is what is a good design for anaerobic bacteria. I'm thinking old style denitrator with Stoli added.

 

[mojoreef]

If your explanation is correct that they are a matrix of organisms then the palcement of the bacteria would seem secondary.

To a point Dan. They will happen where and when based on thier own limitations. Not with ours. Their are many things that can change an enviroment with in sand to skew it to anything. Its not a straight line

What we really need from this thread are ideas on encouraging bacteria to live, all of them

Why????

Bacteria thrive in a trickle filter. This does not provide much information about other types of bacteria, so what I need to know is what is a good design for anaerobic bacteria. I'm thinking old style denitrator with Stoli added.

Man what is it aquarium composting???? lol


Mike

 

[wrightme43]

Holy Smokes Mojoreef!!!! I read it three times. I think I understand, I agree with you. But I sure cant explain it to anyone. Sometimes simple answers look good, sound right, but they are just wrong. I have read articles stating that all 4 process can take place on the same grain of sand or floating deterius. I see how that could work. It makes me feel kind of dumb. I know it occurs or I believe my corals clams and anemoes would be gray slime in the bottom of my tank. Thanks Steve