Nitrofurazone question

[azgard1]

Thanks all, I'm in hopes the fish has no parasite, it went on copper, Prazi, and various fresh water dips. The early dips produced and amount of flukes that must have been a count of at least 50. The last dip lasted 1hr and the fish still had no problem with the fresh water. I've never seen anything like this. I'm trying to do everything possible to save this guy. Main problem I have now is the semi-blindness and not eating.

 

[azgard1]

Inflammation seems to be getting worse? This is the 3rd day treatment. Water change each day of 25% and replacement medication.

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[azgard1]

Line markings on this animal are fantastic. I hope it can be saved.

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[leebca]

Those white fuzzy spots on the fins are the usual result of bacterial infections where the Maine Ich and other parasites have begun their work. The antibiotic treatment would be correct for that.

The side lesions may be caused by external or internal organisms. Since you know the fish had been fluke infected it is likely a left over reaction to that. Still, lesions have many different causes. I don't suppose you identified the flukes? There are several dozen different kinds. What shape, color, and size were they, in the freshwater bath?

The lesions may be a bit of a mystery at this point, however the antibiotic treatment will in the least prevent a bacterial infection.

The mix of antibiotic should not be a problem. It is just that the biological filter will have a problem it didn't need. :|

Aquarists are usually shy about giving their fish an extended FW bath. It is however a procedure I recommend routinely upon the acquisition of all new fishes, especially Tangs and Angelfishes. They both seem to carry hitchhikers with them. My dip recommendations are given here: Fresh Water Fish Dip.

Providing the copper treatment was done properly, without possibility of contamination, there should be no worry of ciliated parasites unless the fish was put into a system, after treatment, that contained parasites. The spots should be watched closely for change. They should go away.

Regarding blindness, it is hard to say. If the eye coating is obstructing vision, then when that clears, the fish will see again. If however there has been damage done to the eye itself or the optic nerve, sight may not return. If the blindness is nerve attack, that is usually a systemic pathogen. The Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish should take care of that.

Permanent eye damage = permanent loss of eye sight. Time will tell.

The fish is loosing its energy reserve. If it can't at least remain in a status quo energy level, it will not be able to heal itself. Getting nutrition into the fish is essential.

Good luck!

 

[azgard1]

Flukes that fell off were about shape as drawn. They were milk white. This was looked at under a microscope but I did not have a reference to ID it.

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[azgard1]

Lee, I was also wondering what the white strands are coming out of the tips of the scales, best shown in image #5?

 

[leebca]

Good diagram. They are typical and nothing unusual. These are about the size of a sesame seed.

I took the white as tips of the scales. Scales outlined in white are often indicative of a bacterial infection. But strands sticking out are a different matter. The photo 5 does not clearly show strands (at least not that I can see. ) If they are strands; not good.

Do they appear to be alive, with movement of their own? Or would you say they are just there, like fuzz, without any movement? Or could the strands not be alive, but loose and when the fish move they move in the passing water? How high off the fish do they extend? Are they increasing in number since you first saw them, or about the same, or less? How long ago did you first see them?

I'm hoping with answers to the above to help narrow what this may be. If you can get a closeup photo that clearly show them, that would help too.

 

[azgard1]

"Do they appear to be alive, with movement of their own?" No

"Would you say they are just there, like fuzz, without any movement?" yes

"Loose and when the fish move they move in the passing water?" yes

"Increasing in number since you first saw them, about the same, less?" Same or slight increase.

"How long ago did you first see them?" Last two weeks after parasite problems.

I have touched the areas and it seems like a mucous snot flows with the water and fish movement and will easily wipe off. But comes back after wiping an area with my finger. Also this shows in image one, please have a look.

Also, I got him eating small bits clam fed by long surgical forceps today.

Thanks,
Bob

 

[leebca]

My bad. I didn't catch that in Photo 1. It seems like all I'm able to provide you is with bad news.

Unfortunately what is so well described by yourself, is a sign of a fungal infection. It isn't a surprise considering what the fish has been through. Fungi are one of the opportunistic pathogens. They can't get by the fish's normal barriers (mucous coating, immune response, antiseptic skin, etc.). After an opening from an injury or fluke or serious bacterial infections, fungi can get a foothold on a weakened fish.

Advanced fungal infections are almost impossible to cure. But this one is caught relatively early.

Since the fish probably already has a bacterial infection, you need to switch to antibiotics that have been known to also kill fungal infections. But I caution you, don't get your hopes up. I have put down fish rather than try to cure a fungal infection. Fungal infections, though opportunistic, when in large numbers can overcome even a healthy fish. Thus the condition is very contagious. I don't risk my other fish and instead put down the infected fish. Anyway. . .

Tetracycline has been known to be the best fungal killer. But it is formulated for freshwater fish and not stable at the pH we keep our marine fishes. You'd have to find a 'stabilized' Tetracycline for saltwater fishes. Since I haven't seen it formulated for saltwater fishes for some years, I'm unsure of you being able to find it. Then we go to treatment 2:

Fungal infections have been responsive to some Gram Negative antibiotics. It seems that the combination of Nifurpirinol [a.k.a. Furanace] and Neomycin (a gram negative antibiotic) has had fair results (about 5 out of 10 cured, when caught very early). Follow directions that come with each medication.

Neomycin has some restrictions on it -- it does not get along with copper. If there is any lingering copper in the tank, this becomes lethal to the fish.

Begin this treatment as the Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish treatment ends on day 5 (after removing most the drug with fresh activated carbon or other organic absorbent). This gives you a couple days to find the meds if you want to go in this direction.

 

[azgard1]

This fish is able to withstand very low specific gravity as observed in the previous dip for 1hr, what do you think of that in regard to Tetracycline or is Maroxy a possibility? Can this tolerance to low salinity be used to our advantage?

 

[Planet Reef]

Yikes....I'm still pulling for you Bob. I hope this guy has determination and strength to live.

 

[leebca]

A large number of marine fishes have the ability to withstand being in freshwater for quite some time. At hyposalinity, marine fishes have been known to thrive in excess of decades without any visual signs of a problem.

But that doesn't mean the pH is low or neutral. Even in FW the pH still must be high for the fish. It is the pH that is wrong for the Tetracycline. So the hyposalinity or freshwater tolerance I don't think is of any advantage where this is concerned.

 

[NaH2O]

Lee - I'm trying to learn when you figured out it was a fungal infection. Did the photo help with final determination after the answer to your questions? Just trying to learn as much as I can

I also wondered about treating with Doxycycline? The Stoskopf Fish Medicine book talks about the tetracyclines being unstable at higher pH, but I found this link, that says it is not "de-activated" by high pH like other Tetracyclines? Doxycycline Hydrochloride.

 

[azgard1]

I'm not giving up on this guy.

I have set up another 55gal tank filled with good water from my 300gal. This new tank includes a refuge of it's own, and I will start again with a fresh and completely stable system. In any event, what would you recommend at this point now that I have a clean 55gal bio stabilized system for a fresh start?

Regarding Tetracycline, what Ph will it work at?
Is Maroxy by Virbac Inc. a possibility? or is Neomycin the best choice?
Also, what would your thoughts be on Bio-Bandage, this is Neomycin-Based Gel?

Thanks Lee,
Bob

 

[leebca]

The claim of that drug is that it works like Chloramphenicol. Chloramphenicol is a G-P, G-N antibiotic. It doesn't kill or known to kill fungus.

The answers to the questions were more helpful than the photos. At initial infection the fungus looks like a few filaments. Unfortunately, many worms look the same. Usually when the fungal infection is advanced, there would be 'tufts' of growth. That's the death bell.

Tetracycline is not only an antibiotic, but also a fungicide. It's not effective in saltwater (unfortunately).

 

[leebca]

Bob,

I don't quite understand. Why are you talking about putting the fish into a marine system? The fish is now in a 55 quarantine/hospital tank, right? No substrate, no live rock, etc., etc.?

What is the original home for this fish? It should be in no less than a 500 gallon display tank in a 650 marine system. Do you have such a system or we talking about emergency help for a fish that won't be kept in its proper 'cage?'

The fish needs to be in quarantine until totally healed. Use no water the fish has ever been in for changes. As mentioned before, I would use only freshly prepared water. The fish does not belong in any marine system at this time.

pH = 7 which would kill your fish.

The combo I suggested is what I know to be the best. Maroxy operates (weakly) in a different way.

The gel may prevent the Nifurpirinol from doing its job. I'm unsure.

 

[azgard1]

The 2nd tank is prepared as a clean quarantine. The first was the original quarantine that was used to treat for the parasites. That first tank has so much previous meds like copper, Praziquantel, Nitrofurazone, Maracyn-Two.

The second tank is fully cycled no substrate, no live rock, and not tainted with copper so Neomycin can be used.

The home this fish will go to is a 300gal display with a 40gal refuge. It will be the only animal along with a school of 12 chromis.

 

[leebca]

Understood.

:|

 

[Boomer]

Nikki and Lee

There are no such test kits but here are other means like ICP, etc. This is not only the issue with drugs but any type of colored water. Many "drugs" used in fish treatment color the water. Yellow water mixed with the green, say that green from a Salicylate test kit, is going to produce a funny color. Same think if mixing yellow with a Phenol red test kit. Then there is the other issue, does the drug interred with the ammonia test kit. You are better off with a SeaChem Alert, which adsorbs ammonia onto a card, where the chemical reaction changes the color of the card indicating the amount of ammonia.

Some "drugs" do or will treat fungus. For example Methylene Blue, a light molecular weight organic- inorganic dye, C16H18ClN3S, works well. It is also often a determining indicator for fungus as it adsorbs the blue dye and stains the fungus blue where bacteria do not.

There are true fungicides that work great in seawater but must be gotten from a Vet, such as Griesofulvin but at a cost of 125mg /30 Tablets @ $ 74.95

 

[NaH2O]

Thanks, Boomer. We used Fulvicin (Griseofulvin) as a treatment in horses for fungal skin infections. It came in a powder form, which made it easy to feed, and was effective.