Pinched Mantle

[NaH2O]

I know several folks have said that their clams were re-infected once they re-entered their main tank...but that wasnt the case for me. Maybe there are different protozoans out there that are able to survive on a substitute host for a lengthy period of time, I dont know. But my feeling is that the parasite is just being knocked down (population wise in the clam) by the treatments, (whichever the person is using) and is later able to rebuild the population up to a level where its now presenting symptoms in the clam again....I dont know for sure, thats really nothing more the a WAG on my part without any science to back it up.

Another thought about the protozoan, is perhaps it gets into the mantle tissue itself. The dips work against the protozoan on the surface, however, there are some within the mantle tissue that cannot be reached. Once again, a thought....it would be nice if this could get some serious study by someone.

 

[jlehigh]

I would also ask what is known about the mobility of protozoan. Perhaps after dip-type treatment re-entry into the display to a different location would be effective. After my second Freshwater dip my 4" Crocea was symptom free for 8days.. The Pinching is now back, yet no other clams of any type is impacted.. I think the thought of burrowing is a good one..

 

[Barbie]

Yeah Nikki, I've used the powder at times over the years. That scoop is VERY inaccurate, IMO. With capsules or tablets you know exactly how much you're getting. Then again, I was using a higher than recommended dosage and more water changes, so I wanted to be sure of not overdosing, also. If the powder works, it's definitely easier to get your hands on!

Barbie

 

[Lunchbucket]

well i guess i'm at a loss for what to do. seems like if i do it i'm not for sure gonna get rid of it...which sucks IMO.

i might get the prazipro and try that. need to get it here sometime soon and get a QT set up. you guys just did a heater and small powerhead in a 10gal w/ a light? no skimmer as it would pull out the meds right?

Lunchbucket

 

[mojoreef]

The problem here folks is that we dont know if this protozoan has more then one feeding stratagy?? A clams tissue could be only one of many food sources, and when we remove the clam the protozoan could simply swim to another site for the mena time. Or the protozoan could simply dig into the tissue and ride it out. It only takes a few to escape to come back strong later.

I am seeing a trend on this thread for the treatments to be getting more and more involved and in some cases very risky. I am worried that folks that may be trying to save one or two critters could loose thier whole system.
I do not have this problem but possibly I could offer some advice as to what I would do in this case.
Tissue and clam samples have been sent to a few folks to try to find the species, once this is done an accurate cure might be able to be found, or at least we will have a clearer picture.
Treating the whole tank is a very risky option, we have no idea what kind of short term or long term damage that may cause.
We do know that in a Q tank treated with the metro.... the clams healed and survived.
I would set up a q tank and keep the clams in it, and treat as needed to keep them alive. This way its a viable way of keeping things in a holding pattern until we can dig a little bit deeper on a permenat cure.

Mike

 

[chris&barb]

Mike i agree that it was risky for me to treat my whole system.but i have been treating these clams in a QT for 6 months. if tried FWD,Metro, and a mix of both i also tried Chem-marin stop parasite.i was content with leaving these clams in my Qt,and doing FWD's to keep them alive.but i bought 2 new clams and placed them into the main tank and they pinched in a week.now im sure that these new clams didnt have this PM when i got them so i know that the protozoan was hiding in my tank with out a clam host all that time.i fealt that i had to do somthing to rid my system of this.

 

[Maxx]

well i guess i'm at a loss for what to do. seems like if i do it i'm not for sure gonna get rid of it...which sucks IMO.

i might get the prazipro and try that. need to get it here sometime soon and get a QT set up. you guys just did a heater and small powerhead in a 10gal w/ a light? no skimmer as it would pull out the meds right?

Lunchbucket

Eric, the clams will die if left untreated, that's pretty much a given. So you really have nothing to lose by treating them, and everything to gain.

Yes, I ran the QT just like you described with a single 175 w MH over the tank.

Mike,
Good point, I wouldnt have done this in the main tank.

Nick

 

[Travis]

Eric, the clams will die if left untreated, that's pretty much a given.

This is not true. In a healthy system, the clams can live inevitably with the disease. Well, I know they can live with it for 3 years + anyways as that is how long one of my clams had it. At the beginning of this thread I had posted that I had 3 clams. All 3 pinched at one point. I had done FW dip after FW dip after FW dip. I finally gave up on the FW dipping and just kept my fingers crossed that the clams would get better on their own. One of them (a crocea) did get better. For a year or 2 it had always been the worst one to pinch. The second clam (a derasa) also got better for about 6-8 months but then started to pinch again. The third clam (another derasa) never stopped pinching the whole time but still grew like a weed.

Unfortunately, it has now been proven that just because my crocea got better does not mean it was protozoan free. I sold that clam to Lunchbucket and that is how his clams are now infected. I had no idea that the crocea, which had not shown any signs of pinching in almost a year, would still be a carrier and infect his clams. And for the record, Lunchbucket has 2 other clams, which are both pinching now. But the crocea he got from me still isn't pinching. So what happened with the crocea from me. Did it build up an immunity?

 

[Maxx]

Hmm.....I had thought your clams quit pinching after your Kalk disaster....sorry about my confusion there. Thats really kinda funny now, since the whole reason I went hyposaline was because I understood your clams had quit pinching after the lowered salinity and high Alk conditions caused by your top off going bad on you. I might not have gone the way did if I'd been aware of that.

Well.....I'd still say go for it Eric and treat them in a QT tank.

Nick

 

[Travis]

The clams did quit pinching after the crash and I thought they were cured and the tank water was cleaned but..... it eventually came back. I don't remember ever saying that the pinching was gone for good. If I did, it was only a guess and based on the short period right after the crash, and I never followed up on the thread. Sorry if I misled you. I guess that can also say a little something about the protozoan. If it can survive the high PH and lowered salinity of 15 gallons of supersaturated kalk added to a 130 gallon system, then it must be pretty tuff stuff.

 

[Lunchbucket]

mojo - i agree that we do NOT know enough about this bastage to really know how to treat it or how to get rid of it. i hope that future break throughs develop SOON!

maxx - travis pretty much covered it but a crocea that showed NO signs of PM disease infected my 2 perfect clams...and the "carrier" crocea shows no signs still...but my other two look like POOP! i don't know if this blows anything open for people or complicates the problem but it confuses Travis and I.

i am going to buy some prai and some metro. then i'll set up a QT ASAP (next week) and treat them to keep them alive for now. i would like to think that they would recover like Travis's did but i don't want to loose a clam i have had for 2-3yrs and another one.

thanks
Lunchbucket

 

[Marc]

Um... ASAP doesn't mean "next week," Eric. More like "within the hour." I hope the threatment works out for you.

 

[NaH2O]

Lunchbucket - I don't know if you've read through this thread yet, but just so you know, when treating with metronidazole, I observed (and I think most of us did) a washing out of the clam's coloration. I wanted you to be aware of it, incase you started to see it.

 

[mojoreef]

chris&barb I wasnt really trying to point out your situation so please dont take that post wrong. I would hate to see anyone loose a tank over some clams.

Its a tough call on the protozoan, specially now that we know it can survive with out the clam. I will dig into the books this weekend and make some calls to see if I can get something we can chew on here


Mike

 

[chris&barb]

Mike
I understand what you were saying.but ive just about had enough with this PM.i knew it was very risky,but it looks like it turned out good.im still keeping a close eye on them.

Chris

 

[Lunchbucket]

Marc - well should be here next week

NaH2O - thanks for the reminder. i'll remember that

mojo - well let us know what you find out

well i need some sort of help

Lunchbucket

 

[Maxx]

well i need some sort of help

We've all been saying this for quite awhile now......oh, you mean with the tank.......

Keep yer chin up man, you'll get past this.

Nick

 

[steve-s]

Its a tough call on the protozoan, specially now that we know it can survive with out the clam. I will dig into the books this weekend and make some calls to see if I can get something we can chew on here

My money is on an intermediary host (univalve/crustacean). Looking forward to hearing what you find...

Cheers
Steve

 

[Lunchbucket]

maxx - LOL very funny buddy yeah it just one more thing to get through. on a side note i got my replacement CBB today

Lunchbucket

 

[tang_man]

I just read through this entire thread. The information here is amazing.

I just lost a Crocea that I've had for 2 years to what I think is PM. At first I thought it was some sort of predator....

I have a mixed reef with 2 Crocea's (4-5"), 2 Maxima's (2-3"), and a 11" Squamosa. The Crocea's have not been extending their mantles for the passed few weeks, one of them was a recent addition. The one I lost was a full 7", and eventually started to recede it's mantle.

The Maxima's and Squamosa seem unaffected. I figured that the Maxima's would be the first to show signs of problems as they are juvenile, but that is not the case.

I'm going to look into finding some Prazi or Metro and medicating the Crocea's in a separate tank. I'll post back once I locate the meds and start the treatments.