Rea17
Well-known member
Thanks Lee. I will keep you guys updated on how the treatment goes.
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Rea17
Well-known member
By rea19 at 2012-07-31
By rea19 at 2012-07-31
This is what the fish looks like this morning. The cupramine treatment has been raised to full strength and I am seeing no improvement in the PBT's condition, in fact she is continuing to get worse. I was able to get much better photos of the ailment so I thought I would update for everyone's reference. I am waiting on methylene blue to start my FW dips... hopefully she lasts that long
The fish is still eating well.
So far, almost every fish that has had this, has been eating well throughout.
Were you able to get Formalin? The reason I ask is that, even if you do perform the FW dips you might have to fall back on Formalin dips -- if you're inclined to keep trying.
BTW when you're ready with the FW dip -- do 5 total, one every other day.
[I have never seen it this. . .pronounced].
Were you able to get Formalin? The reason I ask is that, even if you do perform the FW dips you might have to fall back on Formalin dips -- if you're inclined to keep trying.
BTW when you're ready with the FW dip -- do 5 total, one every other day.
[I have never seen it this. . .pronounced].
NC2WA
Well-known member
Rea,
Wow..that is an acute case of <undefined> parasite.
If an award of Persistence and Patience is to be given, you win that award...keep up the good job with treatments...
Wow..that is an acute case of <undefined> parasite.
If an award of Persistence and Patience is to be given, you win that award...keep up the good job with treatments...
Rea17
Well-known member
I don't have formalin on hand... I can order some. I like to have everything I might need at my disposal. If the FW dips don't work I might give up. Those white things are dug pretty deep into the PBT's skin and it looks painful - it isn't fair to the fish to keep this up for much longer. This is the 3rd time I've treated the fish and sometimes if 1 and 2 don't work... the fish's fate is just out of my hands.
Yes, the parasite is very pronounced now. Believe it or not it was much worse the 2nd time the fish was ill. Like I said it ate away the fins and almost killed the fish overnight, I'm shocked that she survived. The PBT wants to live and I really don't want to give up on her, so I'm going to try everything before I resort to euthaneasia. I am mostly updating photos/etc for other people that may run across this awful parasite. Hopefully we can compile some information on it and figure out how to beat it!
Yes, the parasite is very pronounced now. Believe it or not it was much worse the 2nd time the fish was ill. Like I said it ate away the fins and almost killed the fish overnight, I'm shocked that she survived. The PBT wants to live and I really don't want to give up on her, so I'm going to try everything before I resort to euthaneasia. I am mostly updating photos/etc for other people that may run across this awful parasite. Hopefully we can compile some information on it and figure out how to beat it!
NC2WA
Well-known member
Rea,
Hoping you don't have to use this article, but in case you do, here is an article Lee wrote on euthanasia:
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/euthanasia-putting-marine-fish-down-28116/
Hoping you don't have to use this article, but in case you do, here is an article Lee wrote on euthanasia:
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/euthanasia-putting-marine-fish-down-28116/
Rea17
Well-known member
I saw that when he linked it before, but thanks for the refresh I already bought some clove oil in case I decide to go that route.
I already bought some clove oil in case I decide to go that route.
NC2WA
Well-known member
Ive only done this once in my life..a purple tang that was suffering..
Rea17
Well-known member
This will be the first time I've had to do it. It is really unfortunate to devote so much time and energy to caring for and treating a fish, only to have to kill it in the end to end its suffering. I suppose ironic would be the right word... but anyway, I'm not quite to that point yet. From reading Lee's article it seems like clove oil is the most simple and humane way to do it. I just don't want to euthenize the fish and then discover a way that I could have saved it.
NC2WA
Well-known member
I hear ya..in my case, my wife could see the fish was suffering and said better to put it down..
Fish being in 'pain' is a huge subject that science has yet to thoroughly delve into. So is the concept of 'suffering.' People tend to 'personify' the fish. The human conditon of Anthropomorphism is something that animal researchers constantly have to deal with and, watch out for. (Yes. It's worth looking them up in your dictionary).
I will say this -- a fish under stress (which would include pain and discomfort) would usually stop eating. I'm not convinced this fish, or others that have been similarly infected, are in fact in pain or suffering. This doesn't mean euthanizing this fish isn't the correct coarse. Other than pain and discomfort, there are other legitimate reasons for euthanizing, given in that post.
I will say this -- a fish under stress (which would include pain and discomfort) would usually stop eating. I'm not convinced this fish, or others that have been similarly infected, are in fact in pain or suffering. This doesn't mean euthanizing this fish isn't the correct coarse. Other than pain and discomfort, there are other legitimate reasons for euthanizing, given in that post.
NC2WA
Well-known member
if one knows origins of words, this should be easy to decipher.
Disclaimer: I like the Etymologies of words.
anthropo=study of man/human
morphism=the quality of having a specific form
Originally anthropomorphism was in reference to God or gods as having human form and human characteristics (Greek word anthropo, human), but everyday definition it means ascribing human characteristics to nonhuman things.
Back to fish stuff!!!!!!!
Rea17
Well-known member
That is definitely true Lee. It is hard not to personify our fish sometimes, and I took all of your points to consideration when I read your euthanasia post. Like you said, it is still most often an emotional decision. The spread of the parasite and failure to treat is certainly a more legitimate reason to put the fish down than the fish being in supposed "pain," or at least what humans think of as pain. The quality of life factor is definitely there as well. The PBT can't live the rest of its life in a QT tank with medications, and the 3 times I have introduced it to my display without exposure to such meds the fish gets sick and well... looks like the above pictures. I just wish I knew if the parasite is surviving on the host fish or in my tank somewhere...
Maxx
Staff Housemonkey
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Its good to prepare for future possibilities....
Having said that, I'd be inclined to take this one day at a time.
Order the formalin. Its not bad to have on hand whether you use it this time or not.
Do the freshwater bathes.
The fish looks absolutely horrible, but its eating.
I'm a big believer in the animal's behavior will tell you more than the appearance.
If its acting as close to normal as possible and eating well, then you still have a fighting chance.
No, you cant keep the PBT in QT for the rest of its life. But you might very well be able to get the fish healthy and worst case scenario find another home for it, assuming you dont see further outbreaks for a month or two while its in QT.
JMO....
Nick
Having said that, I'd be inclined to take this one day at a time.
Order the formalin. Its not bad to have on hand whether you use it this time or not.
Do the freshwater bathes.
The fish looks absolutely horrible, but its eating.
I'm a big believer in the animal's behavior will tell you more than the appearance.
If its acting as close to normal as possible and eating well, then you still have a fighting chance.
No, you cant keep the PBT in QT for the rest of its life. But you might very well be able to get the fish healthy and worst case scenario find another home for it, assuming you dont see further outbreaks for a month or two while its in QT.
JMO....
Nick
Rea17
Well-known member
I would feel pretty bad about finding a home for it if it was still carrying something, but I prefer the idea. Previous treatments only hid the symptoms.
Maxx
Staff Housemonkey
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I'm not suggesting handing it off to someone while its still infected....I'm stating that if the fish is still eating and otherwise acting normally you have a chance at getting it healthy.
If you decide to find a home for it after its healthy, rather than keeping after its healthy, that is something you can consider at that time...
Nick
If you decide to find a home for it after its healthy, rather than keeping after its healthy, that is something you can consider at that time...
Nick
Rea17
Well-known member
As of today the fish is showing no interest in food, and the spots are looking the same.
All I meant was that the fish appeared healthy for long periods in QT, so I would feel uncomfortable giving it away in case of another relapse.
All I meant was that the fish appeared healthy for long periods in QT, so I would feel uncomfortable giving it away in case of another relapse.
Bosco83
Well-known member
Update please
Rea17
Well-known member
I continued the treatment that Lee recommended and the infection persisted for 2 weeks of full medication, and managed to get worse. I had to euthanize the fish because she just wasn't going to get any better as far as I could tell. None of the fish she has been housed with have shown signs of anything similar and it seems to be an unknown parasite that the PBT was hosting on her own. I went ahead and added my leopard wrasse pair and they have been doing very well - not showing any signs despite their constant contact with the sandbed. During the PBT's last couple of weeks she definitely lost her appetite and was much less active.
Derbird
Well-known member
I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. At least you know you did everything that you possible could.
