QT for Acro Eating Flatworms

[NaH2O]

Tracy - If you go back and look at the first post, you can see the flatworms on the coral, and see them in between corallites on the acro. Also, if you look at the pics of the dip buckets, then you can compare their size to the mini brittle stars....they are about the size of the central disk. That should give you a good indication on where to look and what to look for (although they are really difficult to see....once you see one, however, you will be able to find them). I found the AEFs nestled down in the branches and the underside of the branches, and I could see them clearly on the colonies most severly infected. If you take the acro out, and examine it with a magnifying glass, you should be able to find the eggs. They are quite small when by themselves, but I found them in groups that were easy to spot. Most eggs were found at the base of the branches, underside of branches near the base, or tucked in the center of the colony. Give your coral a good look over, let it be for a week or two, then give it another look. I'd say by the time the QT for the coral is over, you should be able to spot them if you have them.

Leebca - thanks for tagging along with this thread.

I've been out of town, and I didn't get to my "scheduled" dip, so hopefully I can get to it tomorrow sometime. I have to get the other QT ready to take the corals after their dip, too. I feel transferring the corals from tank to tank is the best method for me, combined with the dips. It will allow for any eggs, that may have been laid on surfaces other than the coral, to be wiped out.

So far the corals are hanging in there. I'm interested to see if I can find any flatworms or eggs at the next dip.

 

[Rod Buehler]

Coming in late here, and I have just skimmed the thread for now.
I know that Fluke tabs will kill the AEFWs.(1 tab per 10 gallon for 15 minutes. I have only done this in a hospital tank. I havent treated the whole reef this way. I know the many wrasses will eat the AEFWs, (halichloris species) Radient, and ornate are very efficient at hunting them down, but they can only eat the ones that they can get to. I know that acro crabs (both good and bad) will also keep the AEFWs away. We didnt really notice the acro eating flat worms until we killed all of our acro crabs with red bug treatment.

 

[NaH2O]

Thanks for the input Rod. I'm interested in what fluke tabs you used? I'd like to try it with subsequent dips, or when I start bringing in the rest of the corals. The Levamisole didn't seem to phase the corals (at least for the first dip). How often would you treat the corals in the hospital tank? I'm curious because of the eggs hatching.

It is interesting what you said about the acro crabs. None of these corals have acro crabs, but when I do redbug treatments in QT I remove acro crabs and keep them in a separate vessel. I do treat incoming corals with Interceptor, as well.

 

[Rod Buehler]

The Fluke tabs are a product of AP (Aquarium products) I mis typed in my last post. It should be 1 tab for 10 gal for 90 minutes. No harm will be done to the coral. It will kill the flat worms but not the eggs. I never noticed any eggs on any living tissue, SO I just did the dip for 90 minutes , then fragged off any dead area, and put the coral (or many frags) back into the system. I havent had any issues (that I know of) since. I do have wrasses and many acro crabs though. I even leave the "bad crabs" in the acro until I notice them causing more dammage than what can be healed.

 

[Sherman]

I'll chime in here. The "other thread at RC" mentioned was headed up by two close friends of mine, so I got to see all of this behind the scenes. Both tanks still have AEFW, just for the record.

I have been paying special attention to acro crabs, as well. I've noticed that I've never seen red bugs, AEFW, or another pest on corals with acro crabs. I've talked to a couple distributors about getting acro crabs delivered, specifically, but it doesn't seem especially feasible. Perhaps if they realized they could get several dollars EACH for these little guys (I'd pay it), they'd reconsider.

Salifert's Flatworm Exit will hold the AEFW at bay, and one of the two previously mentioned friends has had limited success with it. However, he's also spent several hundred dollars on the stuff, as his tank is 240g, and he uses multiple bottles of the FWE per dosing. And we're still not sure it works.

He was advised about Fluke Tabs, as well, though he hasn't tried them, because he can't pull corals out for QT treatment. I'd love to try it, even at the expense of potentially killing the coral.

Turkey basters work OK for blasting the AEFW off the corals, but a powerhead works better. Make sure it's not a Seio/Tunze. You want the pinpoint jet, and want to jam that nozzle right down into the coral if possible. These little guys can hang on pretty well, so it can take a lot of force (Maxijet 1200 works well) for a minute or two on the same spot. This won't do anything for the eggs, which need to be scraped off. I wouldn't expect a toothbrush to do anything to the eggs.

Interesting idea about supergluing the egg clusters! Heck, why not? Worst case is they hatch anyway. A couple of side notes: IIRC, the timeframe for egg laying to hatch is about 5-7 days, but I'm not positive. I seem to recall the survivability without host to be about the same. I hesitate to post these, as I'm so unsure, so please follow up with your own research .

I'll be staying tuned, as I'd love to hear what the Italian reefer may have found! Remember when we thought it couldn't get any worse than red bugs? Just wait will we laugh at AEFW!

 

[NaH2O]

Its scarey to think we might be laughing one day at AEFs! Yikes! :shock: The sad thing is I think you are absolutely right. My basement is starting to look like an animal pharmacy....between Interceptor, Levamisole, Betadine, Metronidazole (from the clam treatments), and soon to be Fluke tabs.....anyone need to QT some corals?? :lol:

Thanks for posting to this thread Sherman. I do need to dedicate sometime to the RC thread and thoroughly read everything.

I think I'm going to order some Fluke Tabs and give them a try along with my other regime. The positive I have going for me is the fact these corals haven't been in my tank yet. I'm still thanking my lucky stars for getting the extra MH set-up for the QT. Hmmm....maybe I should start a parasite tank . Anyone ever see a redbug infested coral with AEFs?

As for the acro crabs - I know a few people that would love to buy some! Some day, hopefully, they will be available. FWIW, I have seen some acro colonies with redbugs that also had acro crabs.

 

[Rod Buehler]

I have also seen red bugs on acros with crabs. IMO I dont think that the red bugs pose near the threat that we all thought/think. I think that the red bugs have been around a loooonng time. Sometimes they will cause problems if the system isnt quite up to PAR, and/or if the coral is struggling anyway. Some of teh best SPS tanks that I have ever seen are confirmed to have red bugs, and their tanks ROCK! A few of them have been TOTM at RC. Sometimes I think we are a little too eager to blindly kill what we dont know about, without knowing the reprocussions. Especially when the chemical we use is killing off many many other things, and especially if we are trying to run natural systems.

 

[NaH2O]

True, however, if the coral is treated prior to going into the system, then the display won't need to be interceptored. No doubt some corals are fine with redbugs, but Eric Borneman posted a video here awhile back, and you could watch the redbugs digging their little heads into the coral tissue. It was amazing. I feel they do enough damage to the coral that it won't be able to survive some other tank event. Similar to what you're saying about the tank not being up to PAR. A little extra stress and the coral is toast.

The treatment for red bugs seems so much like cake walk compared to dealing with AEFs. Don't forget montipora eating nudibranchs! UGH!

I guess each individual needs to think about the pay off in the end, and if all the extra work is worth it, in order to keep your display SPS parasite free. I've talked to a few reefers that feel keeping SPS isn't worth it anymore. I'm just glad information is getting out there to hobbyists (at least on the current parasites). The more frag trading that goes on, the more RTDs (reef tank diseases) will be spread .

 

[Scooterman]

Nikki, how hard is it to spot the eggs, It would seem that if you covered every square inch of each coral & just happen to miss one & think well it is clear so I'll put It in the main display then your in trouble later on.
Should you QT & treat every sps for red bugs & flatworms?

 

[NaH2O]

I think it is really up to each hobbyist and the risks they are willing to take, and how much they are willing to do. Even if a preventative dip is out of the question, observing the coral in QT for 6 weeks may end up saving trouble in the display in the future. If you see red bugs on a coral in QT, your options and decisions (treat or don't treat) are alot easier to make, compared to encrusted corals in a display tank 6 months later. Red bugs are difficult to see, although once you see them, it is easier to spot them. So close observation is important if you haven't seen them before.

For me, the clusters of eggs were easy to spot once I knew what I was looking for. I don't know that you have to treat every SPS for AEFs (although I have treated every SPS with Interceptor prior to going in the tank). If you follow standard QT procedures, IMO, you'd likely see some eggs or spot trouble areas on the corals before the end of QT. I think it would likely require constant observation of the corals, and (even though it is stressful) taking them out and looking them over really well every week or two with a good magnifying glass. This would allow you to inspect for eggs, and adult AEFs. The last thing I'd recommend is cutting off the coral from any base it may be mounted on (also helpful in keeping nuisance algaes out). The current corals I have in my display all are post RTN, and they all received a thorough going over with a magnifying glass. I recently pulled them out (since they're all new, no encrusting to worry about yet) just to double check for AEFs, and I did not observe any evidence of adult flatworms or eggs.

 

[Scooterman]

So QT for observation is key, not necessary to treat for everything unless you find a problem. Is it necessary to have a MH for this time period?
Excuse my Ignorance why would you remove the base & what is encrusting?

 

[Little Luey]

I just got my first SPS corals a few weeks a go and I was told to use Tropic Marine Pro Coral Cure, this is for flatworms. I did 15 minutes dips then back to my QT, then another dip the following week.
Do you guys dip all your SPS even if they look fine? it would seem the logical thing to do. I know I will dip everything I get from now on.

 

[btuck]

So QT for observation is key, not necessary to treat for everything unless you find a problem. Is it necessary to have a MH for this time period?
Excuse my Ignorance why would you remove the base & what is encrusting?

I do not think it necessarily would be required to use MH to QT your acros, but since they may need to be in QT for a lengthy amount of time you would probably end up with brown acros if you just used PC's. No reason IMO to spend money on beautifully colored acros if you are just going to let them go brown.

I believe the base is removed because the flatworms will lay eggs on the area of the Acro where they have already eaten away and the skeleton is exposed. This dead area isn't limited to the skeleton but could also be the plug or base that the original acro was glued to. So to help make sure that there are no eggs the base is removed.

Encrusting is when the acro begins to grow outward covering its original base or plug.

 

[Scooterman]

Thanks Tbuck

 

[NaH2O]

Little Luey - I do an redbug treatment even if the coral looks fine. It could have been next to an infested coral, and all it takes is one female redbug with a brood pouch to start the infestation. The redbugs are so small, that it would be easy to miss one or two. I don't plan on doing preventative dips for AEFs, but I haven't made up my mind yet. I suppose it will depend on where the coral comes from, and I certainly will look the coral over with a magnifying glass (looking for eggs or flatworms).

btuck - I couldn't have said it better, well, I probably could have said it better (j/k, j/k) ROFL. Seriously, great post! BTW - my little one's temp spiked up to 103 last night .

 

[Rod Buehler]

IMO/IME, I would dip for the AEFWs before the red bug, but would actually do both. Tropic marin pro coral cure is supposed to take care of both with one treatment.

Even without completely knowing the repercussions, I would recommend dipping every new acro for both red bug and AEFWs. I would be certain to remove/save any acro crabs before the dip though

 

[btuck]

btuck - I couldn't have said it better, well, I probably could have said it better (j/k, j/k) ROFL. Seriously, great post! BTW - my little one's temp spiked up to 103 last night .

Well you know I did learn from the best....all those hours of listening to you drone on about one thing or another blah blah blah is really paying off now. :lol: ok ok so you've taught me a couple of things....

I told you she was getting sick but you didn't listen. You said no no she just woke up and she's fine...you wouldn't listen.

Nikki--any word on your possible addition....(no people she's not pregnant)

 

[NaH2O]

New update. The corals all received another dip in Levamisole last night. When I went to get everything ready, I noticed one of the stags was starting to RTN. I think the picture in my first post of the flatworms was this coral, so it was in really really sad shape before all of this started. When I placed the corals in their dip, I looked them over very well. I honostly will be surprised if the other two corals (one that is fragged up already) make it. The coral that was rtning was removed completely. I saved one frag that had tissue left with a "normal" appearance. All the other pieces were half-way or more gone, so they were pitched. The infestation was really bad though, so I really doesn't surprise me in the slightest. The corals have been through alot in the past few weeks trying to save them.

:lol: LOLOL Brian! You're right...I should listen a little better next time . I'll remember that when you have children. In regards to the new addition, I'm waiting for a photo of her, which will likely seal the deal barring any possible tempermental issues (I don't see that as being a problem though).

 

[Scooterman]

Your telling me after all this time & effort of dipping & treating they stil won't make it, what would cause them to RTN I wonder, all the stress? Makes me wonder if FOWLR the way to go maybe!

 

[NaH2O]

My guess is the flatworms had the corals stressed out enough that they couldn't handle the extra stessors I was subjecting them to. They really were not in very good shape, but so far only the one that RTNed was in the worst shape of the three. I'm really surprised it lasted as long as it did. I'll have a peek in a little bit and see how the others are doing.