RBTA or RLTA?

[SRV]

Hi all:
I'm trying to find out why my Rose rarely if ever has bulbs on them. Occaionally in the evenings when he closes up he will have much thicker, heavier tips but never really any bulbs like I've seen on other RBTA's. Is this not a RBTA? Is this a rose colored LTA? When/Why do they produce the bulbs? This nem is at least 8 yrs. old and gone through multiple splits. All clones look pretty much the same. My water parameters are good. Any good threads (I'm sure there are!) with info on the BTA's and LTA's and which other corals are compatible with them? Just curious about this particular nem. Here's a pic.
Rick

[/IMG]

 

[Herefishyfishy]

RBTA.
There are different looking examples of RBTA. Some have streaky red and others solid pigmentation. Similar to people, some have curly hair and some not, some blue eyes, some brown but all still humans. Yours is a good looking anemone.

 

[SRV]

RBTA.
There are different looking examples of RBTA. Some have streaky red and others solid pigmentation. Similar to people, some have curly hair and some not, some blue eyes, some brown but all still humans. Yours is a good looking anemone.

Hey Mike
OK? Is it a RBTA? Is it a LTA? Just looking for a little more info on this guy. By the way, the majestic on your avatar, is he in your reef?

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Yes, yours is a RBTA and a nice healthy looking one at that.

The Majestic is in my reef along with Yellow, Dejardini, and Hippo tangs plus some smaller fish and inverts. It leaves all the corals and clams alone. Primary food is Nori and green reef flakes. Eats all types, loves minced seafood mix.

This is the third majestic, second larger one successfully kept in a mixed coral reef tank. The majority of majestics that I have seen or read of have been reef safe. Obviosly there will be exceptions to every rule, especially with larger angels.

 

[returnofsid]

Definitely an RBTA. It's said that the more light they get and the more food they get the more bulbous their tentacles will be. The stretched out tentacles, some say is a sign that it's reaching for light or food. Mine is usually stretched out like yours. Sometimes, it's bulbous. I haven't figured out what makes it do it though...lol.

 

[btuck]

I have been told that they only create the bulbs when they are in defensive mode. This is to help protect the mouth and vital organs. When they are no longer under stress they lengthen the tentacles. I believe this is true because when I have fragged my anemones they bulb up for a week or so until they heal then go back to the longer tentacles.

 

[Jan]

I've heard anecdotally that some RBTA's spend most of their time with bulbous tentacles and some RBTA's rarely get bulbous. Sounded like a individual-specific kind of thing.

The little RBTA I just got was deflated when I first saw him in his transport container. Then after an hour in his new tank he was all bubble-tips. Later when the lights went out he deflated a little. Today he's bubbly again.

He's really cute, in any case, and seems really healthy.

 

[SRV]

Definitely an RBTA. It's said that the more light they get and the more food they get the more bulbous their tentacles will be. The stretched out tentacles, some say is a sign that it's reaching for light or food. Mine is usually stretched out like yours. Sometimes, it's bulbous. I haven't figured out what makes it do it though...lol.

I have been told that they only create the bulbs when they are in defensive mode. This is to help protect the mouth and vital organs. When they are no longer under stress they lengthen the tentacles. I believe this is true because when I have fragged my anemones they bulb up for a week or so until they heal then go back to the longer tentacles.

More Info.
Back in March, I aquired a GBTA that got nailed by a powerhead. It's recovering nicely and it has bulbs. (returnofsid) Kinda rules out light and feeding since there in the same tank. (btuck) Does make me think about defensive/stress conditions though.
Anyone know of any good links for compatibility? I'm setting up a large tank for Nem's and would like to know what other kinds of coarls they like to kill. That's for all my SPS buddies. Seriously, if you got'em, show'em. I would like some good links. Thanks!

 

[Jan]

I found this website to be really interesting, and the woman who runs it answered an email of mine.

Here is her site: http://www.karensroseanemones.com/sharingthetank.htm

Here response to my question about safe cohabitants:

I have 9 bta's in my mixed reef tank, and 3 in another mixed.
They get along fine as long as they are not touching other corals, they will fight for space and one will withdraw while the other stings.
So if you can put your anemone in first, give him a few weeks to find him fun spot, then add your other corals on the opposite side of the tank, they will all be just fine.
They survive in the wild in mixed beds, saying they won't in our tanks is just silly.
Here is the proof, my 125 now.

She sent me photos of her mixed reef:

Hmmm...my computer saved her photo as a bitmap and offered no options on filetype. Can't get it to upload. Well, if you want to PM me your email address I can try sending you the photo that way.

 

[NaH2O]

SRV - I'm not sure if your last post was asking what corals you can keep anemones with, so I'm going on the interpretation that is what you were asking. It is not recommended to keep anemones with corals. Below you will find a couple of quotes from Anthony Calfo about mixing corals with anemones. Links to the threads are also available:

From Soft Coral Safe Anemone

mixing motile anemones and sessile corals is not only unnatural for most species/niches... but it is not practical at all.

I almost never recommend it. Frankly... I cannot recall when/if I ever did.

Its a bad long term mix that will cost perhaps many creatures lives in the tank if something goes wrong.

Although many people do it and get away with it for months... some years... that still does not make it right.

At least consider keeping the anemone in an inline refugium set up specially for it.

Anthony

Another from: Anemone keeping/mixing

it really is a big deal in the long run my friend. Mixing anemone species successfully just does not fare as well as mixing corals species. The anemones are generally exceedingly motile, and in an (unnatural) tank with other cnidarians... its a recipe for disaster for what I believe is a majority of folks in the long term (within 5 years... usually less than 3).

My strong advice is to keep only one per tank, and without other cnidarians like corals. If you must, at least sequester the anemone in a refugium.

Without seeing anemones in the wild, you can observe this niche reality with some filed guides. Check out the books at seachallengers.com or the like.

Else you are going to just have to take my advice on where anemones occur in the wild and compare that with the horror stories of anemones eventually moving about in the tank and finding an overflow, intake or stinging neighbor. But keep in mind too that very few of the folks saying they never had a problem with their anemone are folks with specimens that have not moved in 3+ years Its always the guy with an anemone for 4, 6 or 8 months that claims success

Here are also a couple of really good anemone links from our library. The second link has a list of what species of clownfish associate with certain species of anemones.

How to care for your anemone

Anemone FAQ's (very detailed and requires Adobe Acrobat)

 

[SRV]

Nikki/Jan
Thanks for the links!!! I'll look through them this week.
Yes Nikki, you're correct. I knew I would be restricted as to what was going into the tank with the Rose. If what Anthony says is correct, looks like I might have two tanks after all.
Thanks, Rick

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Great save Nikki

Its true, my friends... true indeed. You will rarely find most hobby use anemones anywhere near corals on the reef, and even when so... that does not translate well to the noxious confines of closed aquaria. I can think of few other creatures that so dearly need species/biotope tanks. Their long term survivability in garden reef aquaria is typically poor to dismal.

 

[SRV]

Great save Nikki

Its true, my friends... true indeed. You will rarely find most hobby use anemones anywhere near corals on the reef, and even when so... that does not translate well to the noxious confines of closed aquaria. I can think of few other creatures that so dearly need species/biotope tanks. Their long term survivability in garden reef aquaria is typically poor to dismal.

Anthony
Now that you have dashed all hope of ever having my Rose in my reef (good reason for more tanks), maybe you can answer my origional question. Why do some RBTA have bulb tips and other don't? Lighting? Chemistry? Water movement? Stress? My hair color? I would really like to know more about the BTA's specifically. Any links or books you could reccomend?
Thanks, Rick

 

[NaH2O]

SRV - Your chemistry will be the same as if you were keeping a reef tank. You want to have really good water quality. As far as the bubble tip loss, from what I have found, it seems there are a couple of theories why E. quadricolor lose their bubble tips.

I found this on WWM: BTA in Captive Systems

The bubbles on the bubble tip anemones are quite attractive. Don’t get too attached to that look. They seem to come and go with time. In my experience, most BTAs do not regularly display bubbles except perhaps when disturbed. Bubbles do not seem to be an indicator of health, reproduction or anything other then maybe rough handle (as during collection, shipping, etc.)

Also from WWM: E. quad FAQs 1

Well yes my anemone seems to be faring well, because it has all its original coloring. It is an E. quadricolor, but no longer bears the bubbles on its tips (another question).
<one theory for this lack of bubble tips is a lack of dynamic water movement as it had on the reef>
The water clarity is very good. I have an Ecosystem 60 filter with Caulerpa thriving; I have just changed my fl. actinic bulbs about a month ago, and my MH bulbs are coming up due for a change in about another month. The anemone moves a bit every once in a while but it never moves into the direct light. It has attached to the underside of a rock and the clown seems happy. I do regular water changes to keep everything in check and balanced. Any other advise for me? Should I slowly shoot brine into the anemone with a turkey baster and see what all it takes?
<never brine, please... animals starve on brine for its extraordinary low nutritional value. Mysis and Pacifica plankton would be better. feed thawed and decanted foods (discard packing juice) with a saltwater slurry to ease shock to invert upon feeding. A slow squirt with a turkey baster from distance is likely fine>
I actively feed them either silversides or a thawed cube of prime reef.
<the prime reef may be fine (for its shredded size)... the silversides are arguably of little value. The sightless stinging animal will of course sting it and draw it in. But most certainly regurgitate this unnaturally large portion at night with respiration. The "rule" for anemones is nothing lager than 1/4 inch. Chunks of flesh would never sink through a reef to a sessile anemone without any number of other larger sighted animals tracking it first. Its unnatural and anemones are ill adapted to feed upon it. They feed on very fine zooplankton naturally.>
I also have some small salad shrimp from the store I thaw and feed them from time to time.
<if raw, a good value, but remember to shred it fine or the anemone will hurl it later and effectively starve in time. It sounds like this anemone hasn't been getting a lot of usable sized rich foods. Perhaps we are dealing with some attrition here>
Thanks!! You have been a great help!
<I hope to have been of some service indeed. kindly, Anthony>

 

[Rod Buehler]

Great save Nikki

Its true, my friends... true indeed. You will rarely find most hobby use anemones anywhere near corals on the reef, and even when so... that does not translate well to the noxious confines of closed aquaria. I can think of few other creatures that so dearly need species/biotope tanks. Their long term survivability in garden reef aquaria is typically poor to dismal.

Hello Anthony, and all

First let me say that I am not recommending that anyone (especially those that are newer to the hobby) plop an anemone into their reef, because that can and will sting.

The symbiotic relations between a clown and anemone is what draws many of us into this reefing hobby, and IMHO, I believe that if you want an anemone in your reef, then by all means do so, but dont do it with out a lot of research. A little common sense will go a long way in this hobby.

I have been keeping reefs for 17 years. ( a lot to some, and still a newbie to others), and for the most of those years I have kept anemones in my reefs without any serious issues. Yes, I have had an SPS or 2 get stung, but I can say that I have lost more SPS (or any coral) to unapparent reasoning that I have ever lost to an anemone. ( I also keep tanks without anemones)

My oldest S. gigantea (supposedly one of the hardest to keep) has been with me for 14+ years, and still attached to the same rock. Here is a little info about S.gigantea From Fautin, and Allen(who most agree are some of the leading authorities on anemones. )

"usually lies at surface of sand, often among corals; pedal disc attached to buried object. " from http://www.nhm.ku.edu/inverts/ebooks/intro.html

I also have another s.gigantea amongst corals for 3+ years.

My rose bubble tip (E.Quadricolor) has been with me for around 8-10 years and has never moved once it settles into its spot. Some info on E.quads from that same link above.
"Tentacles without bulbs are blunt-ended. As a rule, in shallow water (e.g. on tops of reefs) polyps small (oral disc diameter 50 mm), clustered together in crevices or adjacent on coral branches, so that tentacles are confluent, forming extensive field; in deep water (e.g. on reef slopes) polyps solitary, large (to 400 mm diameter), with base anchored in deep hole.""

H.magnifica that I also keep with corals for 4 years (same link)
"Typically occupies fully exposed, prominent position, attached to solid object such as coral boulder."

There are anemones that arent found on the reef but in sand bed flats. If a reef tank can be set up to make those anemones happy, they will also stay in the sand and away from corals IMO/IME.

Years ago the success rate of keeping anemones was not great, but that can be said for many of the animals that we are now able to keep with much more success than what we had in the past.

If you provide the right environment, the anemone will usually only wander until it finds the right spot. Once it does, it will usually stay put IME if the conditions are right.

What do I attribute to some of my limited success? Good water flow ( I really love my surge tanks, which I have read that You do not, Anthony), Good protein skimming, good strong lighting, and good foods. I also run GAC pretty aggressively to help with the noxious confines of closed aquaria. .

I will agree that setting up a biotype tank for these anemones is a very good idea, but for many people its not an option. For those that want an anemone in your reef, it can be done with success. The key is to provide the proper environment for that anemone.

IMO the way to set up a *reef with an anemone is to add the anemone to a WELL ESTABLISHED tank before overloading it with corals. Let the anemone wander until it finds the right spot. If the tank is not well established, the anemone may wander forever until it parishes. After the anemone is comfortable and seems to be staying in its spot, then you can add more corals if it can be done without compromising the conditions that the anemone is accustom to.

Cheers

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Nikki... you are scary good

SRV/All... having said the above (re: anemones on the reef) there are two species that are noteworthy:

1) Heteractis magnifica (ritteri) - which does indeed occur on the reef among corals but requires more light than (literally) any sps coral youve ever seen or kept (hence the reason why you often see them at the top of aquarium roskscapes or near the water edge on the glass at the LFS). They also have horrifyingly high rates of morbidity and mortality upon import. I cannot say a single favorable thing about keeping this anemone in captivity in anything other than species tanks by specialists. The very rare folks that have them for more than a year or two in a typical garden reef aquarium are the rare exceptions and their promotion to others to attempt the same literally - I'm sure - leads to the death of hundreds of other anemones (failed attempts and the high import mortalities to get specimens in the hands of consumers for attempts)

2) Entacmaea quadricolor also occurs shallow (less than 40 feet usually) and actually not near that many corals... but unlike the Ritteri anemone, is actually highly adaptable to a wide range of lighting and is also rather tolerant (for an anemone) of other cnidarians in the system. Though unnatural, mixing BTAs in typical reef tanks (I hate to admit it) is not such a crime. My advise is to at least keep it in a refugium (no corals or other cnids) if not a species tank nonetheless. They look magnificent when kept alone and featuring their many commensals (fishes, shrimps and other inverts)

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Rod... I could not disagree with your advice any more... especially the "add an anemone to a well-established reef tank". That is precisely the action that will elicit an often fatal roaming of an anemone that gets dropped into an allelopathic soup of aged (mature aquarium) aquarium water from a majority of aquarists that rarely use ozone, are generally lax on water changes and carbon over time... and will suffer the same results with adding an anemone to an established tank that so many folks experience with trying to add Acros to established aquariums with soft corals. It categorically will fail most times.

PLEASE reread your last sentences in the post above, you are actually giving folks hope that "For those that want an anemone in your reef, it can be done with success" and you are recommending them to "Let the anemone wander until it finds the right spot" in an ESTABLISHED reef tank with Lord knows how many corals. I'm just horrified at that advice

Your citations on anemones locales is, I'm sure, accurate for some reefs. But you can find as many references or more that are contrary (just look at image after image of ritteri anemones nestled among stonies... or see Knop, et al. for the contrary cites on E. quads. More importanty... just look at them on the reef! I have been through both hemispheres and dozens of tropical locales in the Indian Ocean, South Pacific, etc and promise you that my experience seeing these creatures is extensive and reinfoced by the divers.

As far as the "thinghs are better nowadays" with anemones... ahhhh, no. Park yoruself at any of the big LA whoelsalers any given week and note the condition of the anemones on import. Its the same as any other year (slaughter, frankly) driven by consumer failures that spur demand.

Rare successes like yours only encourage masses of less skilled aquarists to "take a chance" but the result is still the same.

Please DONT concede to recommending anything less than focussed care for special-needs animals.

 

[Rod Buehler]

Rod... I could not disagree with your advice any more... especially the "add an anemone to a well-established reef tank". That is precisely the action that will elicit an often fatal roaming of an anemone that gets dropped into an allelopathic soup of aged (mature aquarium) aquarium water from a majority of aquarists that rarely use ozone, are generally lax on water changes and carbon over time... and will suffer the same results with adding an anemone to an established tank that so many folks experience with trying to add Acros to established aquariums with soft corals. It categorically will fail most times.

I should clarify. I shouldn't have said established reef, but more so an established tank, meaning that it has gone through most of the major cycles (for 6 months to a year) I also said to add it to a tank that is not loaded with corals.

PLEASE reread your last sentences in the post above, you are actually giving folks hope that "For those that want an anemone in your reef, it can be done with success" and you are recommending them to "Let the anemone wander until it finds the right spot" in an ESTABLISHED reef tank with Lord knows how many corals. I'm just horrified at that advice

Again, I said to add before adding corals. There is no harm in letting an anemone wander over the rock work or sand bed that doesnt have a lot of corals, until it finds its spot.

Your citations on anemones locales is, I'm sure, accurate for some reefs. But you can find as many references or more that are contrary (just look at image after image of ritteri anemones nestled among stonies... or see Knop, et al. for the contrary cites on E. quads. More importanty... just look at them on the reef! I have been through both hemispheres and dozens of tropical locales in the Indian Ocean, South Pacific, etc and promise you that my experience seeing these creatures is extensive and reinfoced by the divers.

As far as the "thinghs are better nowadays" with anemones... ahhhh, no. Park yoruself at any of the big LA whoelsalers any given week and note the condition of the anemones on import. Its the same as any other year (slaughter, frankly) driven by consumer failures that spur demand.

My reason for posting in this thread wasnt to debate whether anemones should be collected or not but to say that IMO, they can be kept in a reef environment

Things are better nowadays as in terms of us being able to keep anemones. Yes, the collection, and shipping of these creatures still has a lot to be desired and many anemones are killed by hobbyists that have not done the research needed to keep them, but for those that do some research and try to provide the proper conditions, many species are not all that difficult to keep. Some people even recommend cutting these creatures with a razor blade, and with some species I will agree and attest to having done it myself. but only with species that are known to naturally split. Weather we keep them in biotype tanks or refugiums is sort of irrelevant to whether they should even be collected.

Rare successes like yours only encourage masses of less skilled aquarists to "take a chance" but the result is still the same.

I do always highly recommend researching any animal that is purchased and frankly we used to say the same thing about many of the corals that we were not able to keep in the old days. I feel that If I can share my success, that maybe others can also have success. You know as well as I do that the anemones will be purchased regardless...

Please DONT concede to recommending anything less than focussed care for special-needs animals.

I don't believe that I have. I have recommended that everyone research all animals before purchasing any creature that we keep in our tanks.

Let me ask you this. Is the reasoning behind you recommending against keeping anemones in a reef because of the anemone stinging the corals, or from chemical warfare? or ???

 

[Jan]

I have a couple of questions.

Rod, from your post:

I also run GAC pretty aggressively to help with the noxious confines of closed aquaria. .

What is "GAC?" Something_activated_carbon? I run activated carbon.

I put my RBTA in a 30 gallon cube intended as a species tank, but it will be plumbed to the sump and skimmer shared with my 120 gallon reef. So water will be shared among the tanks....I will continue with the carbon and hopefully no chemical warefare will result (?)

Anthony, can you give a brief summary of your recent seminar on farming anemones? I've read a few posts from people who attended the seminar who learned from you about how to propogate anemones using inexpensive supplies. What is the objective you are intending with this practice? Adding tank-raised anemones to the marketplace so as to reduce the demand for wild-caught ones? (I hated to read your description of being at the LA importer and seeing the near "slaughter" of incoming anemones... )

 

[Jan]

To SVR: (Rick?)

I've read wonderful reviews of a book called "Clownfish," for information about keeping anemones. I think there's a link to the book on that website I posted earlier in this thread.