Red Bugs - Inevitable?

[roscoe]

What I have done was like you said Ceasar is either use a zip lock or a container and do a high dosage and just leave it afloat in my tank for a 2 or 3 hrs. It has worked for me until I stopped that routine and just threw it in the tank.

 

[salmonslayer]

I have a 12gal nano set up with two cp bulbs that I will do some test and welcome any advice, infected corals etc and ways to try some test.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

What I have done was like you said Ceasar is either use a zip lock or a container and do a high dosage and just leave it afloat in my tank for a 2 or 3 hrs. It has worked for me until I stopped that routine and just threw it in the tank.

Great to hear of your success but what is "High dosage?" "High" is a relative word. What was the concentration as in mg/gal or mg/ml?

Did you see dead bugs during the dip? Have any of the dead bugs in the bag started moving again later as in just dorment? Has that frag shown any bugs since then?

After reading everything out there, still a mystery to me and I really wan't to know. We need some double blinded studies or at least confirmed results with specific doses.

 

[salmonslayer]

How would you doc your dose of the amount of tab you use ( weigh it ? )

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Yes either with a mg scale or a balance beam scale. If one has to estimate, be very careful cutting of a tablet of known dosage as in half of half of half, etc.

 

[dailydriven911]

I used a little over a 1/4 interceptor tablet per 3 gallons of water. I put all the frags in with a powerhead and heater for about 2 hrs. I inspected visually every 30 minutes until all rb died and released from the corals. Took about a little over an hour before the started dying...

 

[Herefishyfishy]

I used a little over a 1/4 interceptor tablet per 3 gallons of water. I put all the frags in with a powerhead and heater for about 2 hrs. I inspected visually every 30 minutes until all rb died and released from the corals. Took about a little over an hour before the started dying...

OK, now we are talking! Now we need to know what sized tablet as they come in varying doses

 

[dailydriven911]

Not sure I aquired it from Roscoe. What size tablet roscoe?

 

[roscoe]

I don't know Mike exactly how much but I know it is waaaay more than I should and yes I seen the RB in the persons tank. After the frag spent the 3hrs in the bag or container I saw the dead bugs floating around in the bag and inspected the frag b4 i put it in the tank.

 

[roscoe]

Size tablet? Well I got mines from Mr. Don W.

 

[Katchupoy]

so where do we get interceptor now?

 

[roscoe]

You have to get a precsription, but alot of vets don't know that reef keepers use interceptor for RB. You have to print out some documents supporting what you are trying to do with the interceptor.

 

[salmonslayer]

I think there 22mg and 11mg ?. I know the ones I have are in a yellow pack and are 11mg

 

[treehugger]

Ivermectin and the red bug

Again I have to say that the ivermectin seems to be more effective then the interceptor. I used a concentration of 2ml/gallon of saltwater of injectable ivermec and within 15minutes I saw die off of red bugs. At about 30 minutest I saw a die off of red planaria. I have to check on the concentration of the ivermectin I use at work tomorrow. I will post this info. I will also be experimenting this weekend on a frag of mine that has red bugs pretty bad. I would not recommend using this in a whole tank but as a dip it works nicely and seems not to stress the corals as badly. I will keep you all up to date as I experiment more. I still have not got around to trying heartgard as ivermectin is the active ingredient and this can be purchased over the counter.
More info on ivermectin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Guess if you want pet medication info, ask a vet! Thanks pal, will have to try it for dipping.
So you can get the injectable ivermec over the counter???

As to tank treatment, do you have up to date recommended concentration and time for interceptor or a better medication and it's dosage?

 

[treehugger]

I've only used interceptor as a dip myself. When I did I used 1/4 tab of the 11mg tablet to about a quart of water for like 30-45 minutes. It definately seemed to stress the corals a bit. I just picked that concentration randomly. As for the injectable ivermectin, I'm not sure if you can get that over the counter but the heartgard you can. Like i said i've never used the heartgard. Maybe I'll try that first this weekend so I can give you all some info on it.

 

[Maxx]

Did anyone bother to read the links at the beginning of the thread?

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=439155#439155

That is the original thread regarding the treatment for redbugs.

Milbemycin Oxime is the active ingredient in Interceptor. It is a chitin inhibitor which is why it affects crustaceans. It will not affect other non chitonous inverts such as corals.

Following Dustin's methods, this is what has been successful for me to treat for redbugs on any incoming coral for my tank.

The 23mg pill, (containing 23 mgs of MO-the active ingredient) will treat 380 gallons and will be lethal to redbugs at that dosage. Dividing 380 by 23 = 16.5. This translates out to 1 mg of MO can be used to treat 16.5 gallons of water at lethal doses to Redbugs. I have personally gone well over that several times while dipping new corals for my tank. Unfortunately, I dont have exact measurements, but I can state that I have trippled the dose with no ill effects to the coral being treated.

I'm not aware of any dose that will kill redbugs within minutes, due to its mechanism of action. The drug inhibits chitin synthesis. That takes time to affect the redbug. I have also left the coral in the MO laced water for 24 hours with no ill effects to the coral.

My usual course of action on receiving a new coral is to first acclimate it to my tank's conditions. When the pH and temp are similar, I will place the coral into a container of water from my tank, and dose that with Interceptor. I place the container in my sump to allow for temp regulation, and place an airstone in with it to aeriate water and for circulation. After approximately 12 hours, I will change out the water in the container with fresh water from the system, and dose for red flatworms/planaria with Salifert's Flatworm exit. I dose 4 times the reccomended level as thats what I've found works best at killing any planaria. Too small a dose and they can be build up a tolerance to the Flatworm Exit. FE does not affect the coral at all. It will affect bristleworms, flatworms, and snails though. I will usually treat for planaria for 4 hours, unless there are alot of flatworms coming off the coral. The dying planaria will release toxins that will affect your coral. So water changes are important if any are seen floating in the current.

Finally, I will inspect the coral for any signs of Acro Eating Flatworms. If I see any AEFW's or signs of AEFW's, the coral is immediately dipped in a Lugol's iodine solution for 15 minutes. This will kill AEFW's, but is also stressfull on the coral as well. After the dip, the base of the coral is cut off, and the coral is inspected for egg's or any recessed tissue areas. This is where AEFW's will lay eggs, which is also why the base of the coral is cut off.

At the end of that, the coral is glued to a new sterile piece of rock work or into the tanks rockwork, and left alone.

Nick

 

[ScottT1980]

Just for the sake of keeping things honest. Lufenuron (Program is K9 drug that may be familiar to folks) is a chitin inhibitor, therefore making acute treatment challenging.

Milbemycin Oxime (at least to my knowlege) is a GABA receptor agonist which inhibits motor neurons (not a chitin inhibitor as stated above). This is important, because it explains why we see a more acute kill. Ivermectin is a similar drug, so it makes sense that the results are similar. Also, I believe you can get ivermectin at a feed store, whereas you will need to talk to a vet to get your interceptor.

I am no pharmacologist (nor do I hope to ever be, I just want things to work). However, I can tap the brain of the pharmacologists at school to get a more official answer if desired.

 

[Maxx]

Hey Scott, thanks for the clarification. Its been awhile since I was hardcore into pharmacology and didnt do the research on this like I should have. Arent you either in Vet school or something similar? Good to see you again BTW...

Nick

 

[ScottT1980]

No worries Nick, wasn't trying to be a smartie (I had to look it up, I don't have this stuff memorized).

Vet school indeed, not much left.

Anyone else see significantly increased growth over an extended period of time post treatment (at least 4-6 months) that they can attribute solely to the milbemycin? Are there any controlled studies that support this treatment? Any more information regarding this "parasite" in the wild or in captive systems? I have been out of the loop for a few years.

I know folks often rave about the treatment, but often it is either early on, or there are other confounding factors.

I still think it is a cost/benefit type treatment. Even if it decreases my SPS growth by a fraction, I still get to keep a healthy pod population as well as other arthropods in the tank. Being the lazy reef keeper that I am, it is just easier to keep things as is. I can also understand why others may choose the alternative approach.