Red Bugs - Inevitable?

[Ed Hahn]

Good points Reed!!!
There has got to be someone on this board that has had or is now dealing with red bugs. I hope that they might respond. I think that Ed said that there was someone in Tri- Cities that dealt with this. HELLOOOOOOOOO ED!!!

Ok, So I am really slow...
Charlie,
I had a problem with Flat worms once. I had a piece of Acropora from a local petshop that I thought had acro bugs I tossed it. I recently recieved some acros and was told they might have acro bugs. So I am quarantining those acros in my frag tank now. I want to look at those acros before I even attempt to put them in my Tank. I watched person blow them off with power head. He told me that would remove acro bugs if they were present. Anytime someone says there might be a threat to my tank I am concerned.
I floated my acros in my Frag tank. I will isolate my frag tank today. I thought about doing a fresh water dip on my corals. I have not done that. I am reading like mad of what precausions I can take to prevent Red Acro bugs. I do not want Red Acro Mites in my Acros.

 

[reedman]

Ed,
The bugs are so small that many people have them and don't even realize it. There are several schools of thought on what to do about them when/if you have them.

You can remove all of the acros to a QT and treat the QT with interceptor and let the display tank sit without acros for (I believe) 5-7 days. This will starve the bugs in the main system and kill off the QT bugs.

You can just treat the entire system, take the losses to the shrimp, crabs, etc, and hope everything goes well.

You can ride it out until someone decides, with some scientific evidence, what these things are, what they do, and what the best course of action is.

You can dip corals in a highly concentrated lugols solution (something like 5ml per L of water for 5 minutes) then freshwater dip to kill off the bugs, then put into a clean system.

The blowing off may remove some bugs, but I wouldn't relie on that as a tried and true method to remove the bugs. I've heard they can hang on pretty well when they want too.

I think carefull observation and a dip before introduction of new corals (if you can't QT them) will do a lot to limit the spread of these little beasties. More investigation is necessary to determine their true nature though. They seem to be drawn to blue/purple colors, but not limited to them. They also favor tri-colors. Seem to stay away from longer polyped species (i.e. miilis, and Yongis). There are reports of micro hermits, pipefish, and yellow clown gobies eating them, but not reliably. Time will tell what the real story is. They may be inevitable and it is a case of keeping them to manageable levels like bristle worms.

 

[The R/C Man]

Hey Guys!

Well I had a bout with the little guys a while back. They eliminated one colony of SPS and where inhabiting a couple others such as my blue acro and my tri color. I never treated the tank for fear of the damage that the treatment could do. I decided to let nature take its course. The end result was I only lost the one colony and I haven't seen the little guys since. Apparently they only like certain SPS corals. Do you think maybe we take these natural predators to seriously? I read an article a while back; I believe it was in Coral Magazine. Anyway, they stated that maybe we need to diversify our tanks a little more to include predators and "incompatible" corals. Is this really such a bad thing? Isn't that what makes up an ecosystem? Aren't we trying to mimic nature? IMO our tanks will be better off in the long run. Think about some of the corals that can over run your tank... Xenia would have to be way up on that list. The reason they can just over grow the tank without pruning and why? Lack of predators. Certain fish will eat Xenia. Maybe they are considered not reef safe. Ok, but in this situation don't you want that fish in your reef to keep the Xenia in check? Right now I am having a problem with Pocillipora. It seems that the coral spawned and it is now growing everywhere.....

Ok I was off on a bit of a tangent. The point is we try so hard to eliminate things in our tanks that we don't necessarily understand that we will take risks to the whole system just to eliminate it. The red bugs in my tank went away on there own and that coral they "ate", there are some remnants that where left on the rock that are growing two new colonies. Do you think those colonies will be stronger for surviving the little bugs? Hmmmmm......

 

[Ed Hahn]

.
Sunday I got some new Frags for my Tank. I was concerned with possibility of Red Bugs. So my frags sat in containers floating in my sump until I could be certain I had no problems.
Today I had a fun day trying to get one vet to listen to me about Interceptor. I could not even get past his Receptionist.
I then decided to try to used Lugols Iodine/saltwater mix , and a fresh water dip for a precausion for my new frags. I then looked at them with a magnifying glass on a white paper plate. I did not see any animals crawling or anything unusual. I guess I have Red Bug Paranoia. But I am pretty confident I do not have Red Bugs. I am going to work on getting Interceptor again from other local vetranarians. I feel it would be a good back up for anyone that collect Frags.

 

[Illusion]

Ed a Good way to get past the receptionist is to tell her that she is unable to assist you and tell her that she would not understand... Just be determined to talk to the Vet. Offer the # for them to give you a call back if need be..

HTH<
James

 

[PrimalScream]

5 mils of Lugols with 1 liter of water for :30-2:00 is what I used Nikki. It worked pretty good but some corals took a couple of dips before getting rid of them. I lost only one coral so it wasnt too painful, still sucks though...

Use the above dip at your own risk as I will assume no responsibility in any from, fashion, or manor

 

[Stircrazy]

5 mils of Lugols with 1 liter of water for :30-2:00 is what I used Nikki. It worked pretty good but some corals took a couple of dips before getting rid of them. I lost only one coral so it wasnt too painful, still sucks though...

Use the above dip at your own risk as I will assume no responsibility in any from, fashion, or manor

when I tried the lugols I mixed it about the same strength and did three 20 min soaks. the bugs still made it.. so we played with the iodine and some red bugs under the microscope.. the concentration required to kill them in under 1 min would also kill the coral.

Steve

 

[NaH2O]

How many of you with red bugs have a UV Sterilizer or run Ozone on your reef tank? I'm curious if it has any effect.

 

[ereefic]

I had the red bugs but did do the Interceptor treatment a few months ago. No more red bugs. Polyp extension was poor and colors were faded on those affected with the red bugs. After treatment, the polyps extended better and the colors are much better.

I only did 2 treatments at an elevated dosage than what was recommended, but only decided to do this after reading many different experiences with the treatment.

All new corals are dipped for red bugs. I use about 2 gal. of water in a bucket and 1/4 of a pill. Put a small powerhead in the bucket and leave the frag in there for 1 hour. The first time I tried this the frag went into a QT tank, after the 1 hour dip, for 5 days to be monitored for red bugs. I checked the frag 2 times a day, morning and night, and saw no red bugs using a magnifying glass. Since then i've done the 1 hour dip and placed the frags directly in the display and no red bugs.

As far as long term effects go, I think that will be very hard to find out unless proper research is done on the subject. 2 years down the road a tank crashes, how are we going to say it was the Interceptor that did it?

Personally, I would say that since my corals look better after getting rid of the redbugs, that the bugs are harmful. Will they eventually kill the coral? I wasn't going to find out.

Should people tell those they trade/sell with about the bugs if they have them? YES!!!! I have heard many people say that they will not buy or trade with people whose corals have the bugs. Personally, I will because I treat for them on any incoming frags anyways.

 

[reedman]

ereefic,

I applaud you for the care you show your incoming corals and frags. A QT (where practical) and dips are the right way to prevent any nasties from coming into your tank in the first place.

I have to wonder about your statement that improved color and polyp extension means the red bugs are harmful. We as a community don't know this at all. Could be that there is an ingredient in the interceptor that is causing this extension; could be a reaction to the sudden introduction of a foreign material; could be that the bugs were harmful and the coral is happy now...point is, we don't know. And to suggest that the coral is happy & healthy based on these 2 characteristics is shortsighted in my opinion. There are several threads that have discussed what polyp extension means and there are a multitude of reasons for this action.

Let me be clear, I am not saying that I think the bugs are necessarily harmless, but I refuse to say that they are in fact harmful until someone with scientific evidense says they are. We jump from one assumption to another in this hobby and the newbies and corals get hurt the most. We must all make educated decisions and pass along our opinions until some scientific backing is provided. Then they can be valid claims and no longer opinions.

Off the soap box now. I don't mean this as a personal attack on anyone here or elsewhere. I just want people to understand what is fact and what is conjecture before they plunk a dog medication into a reef aquarium that we try to keep everything out of.

 

[ereefic]

Well, my corals look better and are growing now more (forgot to mention that as being a plus after the treatment) after the treatment than before. They are not bleaching, RTN, STN or anything like that, so I have to assume they are healthy. If they weren't growing, looking nice, having tissue recession, then I would say they are not healthy.

So, IMO I feel that the Red Bugs were harming my corals.

It may not be proven for a very long time, if ever, either way if the bugs are fine or not. I was not willing to take that chance to find out.

 

[reedman]

Very true. Like I said, I think you are an example for many to follow in your QT and preventative treatments. I just don't want people who have not done the research you have to blindly treat their tanks and get upset when they loose corals, crabs, and shrimp. There are risks, and their may be other ways that have not been revealed yet.

I'm glad your tank is looking healthier and I wish you the best in keeping it that way. For the sake of the many folks that have put Interceptor into their tanks, I hope there are no long term effects.

Cheers!

 

[NaH2O]

Reed or anyone - a common claim on corals that seem to be effected, is loss in coloration. Certainly, I agree on the polyp extension - so many variables with that, but as far as coral coloration? How can that be explained? If you go to the first post of this thread, I have a link to some microscopic images. There is one group of images containing shots where Algae maybe within the bug's digestive tract (EPI - Fluorescence). This is where research needs to come in, but what is your take on it?

 

[ereefic]

Reedman, I totally agree with you that people should not do it until they've researched and come to there own conclusions instead of just 'jumping aboard' because everyone else is doing it.

Long term effects of the 'Interceptor' treatment? There very well could be. But until someone does research on it, we'll never know.

 

[reedman]

I'm still in the reading/research phase of this Nikki. There is so much that is unknown. Many have abserved the bugs targeting the blue/purple colored corals...Why? No one really knows yet. Coloration has to do with lighting and water parameters. Maybe there is some link to the bugs optimum conditions also. Don't know. The bugs seem to target corals with smaller polyps and seem to avoid green color strains...again, don't know why. Maybe the corals that are not in prime condition (lack of full polyp expansion by most peoples definition lately) are just easier targets for an oportunistic bug. Maybe there is another parisite we don't know about that is also killed when the intercepter drug is introduced? Maybe the intercepter has something that the corals like (a stimulant of sorts). Maybe the fact that you have to do large water changes gets the water back to a more pristine condition causing better coloration and polyp extension. I have observed my own colonies getting improved coloration after a large scale water change. Maybe because we see something wrong we pay closer attention to the water parameters and the tank as a whole leading to improved husbandry and better coral health. Many many questions and very few answers.

If these are as bad as many believe (I'm not saying they aren't) what keeps them at bay in the wild? What is the natural preditor. Or are they oportunistic feeders cleaning up the less than healthy corals?

Have they always been present in the hobby and we just didn't notice? When and where did they come from and how were they introduced?

I personally think they target declining colonies. It happens that the blue/purple colorations tend to be the most sensitive to water conditions and thus tend to be the most susceptable to being in less than perfect health. This leaves them as the prime target and because they are our prized possesions, they are also the ones that we pay the most attention to. Therefore we notice every small change (i.e. coloration, poylyp extension, growth, bugs). Conversly, corals that are a green coloration tend to be hardier and thus more easily kept healthier. Not an ideal candidate for an oportunistic feeder.

This is all hypothesis without any scientific backing, just observation and educated guessing...like most everyone else.

 

[ereefic]

I guess I feel that people read WAY to far into this. Everybody reports the same findings before and after the treatment. It's not like everyone who had done the treatment has had totally different things happen to there tanks, which could then make you go 'Hmmmmm'. But everyone is having the same critters die (which is no suprise) and corals coming out looking better and growing better than before. And you'd think that if the bugs are attacking corals that are in poor health, and Interceptor is a harmful drug towards the corals, that the corals in poor health being attacked by the bugs would die during the interceptor treatment?

It's been about a year (I believe) since the 'cure' for red bugs was found and I don't see anyone reporting about tanks crashing where Interceptor was involved.

I don't think many people are going to wait around for research to be done to answer all the questions that are being brought up. Should they? Who knows, it's up to them. Chances are people are going to treat with interceptor because they can see the damage being done to there corals from the red bugs.

 

[reedman]

No arguement ereefic. I agree. I just see people jumping all over the place on treatments. It started with red slime remover, then clown gobies (which people got pissed because they spawned and cleared a good chunk of coral flesh to lay eggs - again people didn't research first), then 6 line wrasses, then pipefish (which aren't really compatible with SPS conditions), then micro hermits, then....

Somewhere along the way Dustin at ORA accidentally found the "interceptor cure" and it seems to work. People that followed the instructions (all the way to the end with all 3 treatments with the right measurements) report successfully erradicating the little buggers. I commend Dustin for his research and efforts to back it up. To those that read all of the info and follow directions, I think they are doing great. More and more I see people doing one or two treatments and saying everything is great...just to come back later and say the bugs are back (didn't follow the directions). On top of that, there is now talk that the bugs could be evolving and developing a resistance to the interceptor drug. It's now believed that the onesy twosy treatments are exposing the bugs to the drug without killing it (think of how vaccines work).

I think we are in agreement ereefic. If you want to kill all of the red bugs and are willing to sacrifice your acro crabs and other crustaceons then the interceptor method works. No one knows long term effects, nor will we for a long time. By the time we see anything, if we do, we won't remember this as a possible source.

My only goal is to remind people to do their research, understand what they are putting in their tank, and what the effects are to the inhabitants. I believe you did all this and are a success story because of it. Congrats.

 

[Mike HArrington]

Do the bugs that are in the system die if you take the infected acropora out and have no other acropora in the tank? I had an episode recently where I bought a couple frags at teh LFS and noticed two days later that they were infected. I tossed them in the trash! I have no other corals in the system at this point.

My plan is to do 6 hour interceptor treatments to all new live stock though and not to put in any "live" sand from other tanks to avoid these pest.

 

[Illusion]

It is said that If your tank is Free of all Acros the bugs will die in a period of approx 3 days.... I would say a week atleast to leave them out of the system..

James

 

[Mike HArrington]

thanks for the advice. My dilemaa is this: I have a Tyree Soli frag in a friends tank who has a Butania that is infested with red bugs. Plan is to get the QT up and get my frag and do the six hour treatment in a QT tank and then rinse the frag in SW before placing it in my system.

This wil change teh way we trade frags now!! I will be treating everything as though it is contaminated!!

A friend of mine just got some nice Efflo's that I want and I have to tell him to hang on to it for me so I can make sure I am red bug free.