Red Bugs - Inevitable?

[reedman]

Mike,
It is really too bad you tossed the "infested" acros. It doesn't mean they will die, in fact many do just fine with red bugs on their corals. They may not thrive, but there is no conclusive evidence showing that red bugs (which there are multiple types and not all detrimental) cause acros to die. Many reefers believe that red bugs are harmful and there is plenty of people who will testify to their acros looking better after treating for the bugs.

If they are dependent on Acropora for food source (as many suspect) then yes a QT for a week should do it to rid your main tank of any bugs that made it in (and they did). With the treatment, please remember that you are stressing the coral a lot by putting it into a mix of dog medication and salt water. I would recomend putting the coral into the QT and allowing it to acclimate for a while (reduce stress). Then treat for the bugs, infections, and what ever other nasties come with it. Then observe the coral for another week to ensure the treatment of choice worked (this is the purpose of a QT tank anyway). Once you're conviced all of the things you don't want in your tank are gone, go ahead and acclimate the coral to its new environment.

Good luck

 

[Mike HArrington]

I appreciate the response.

I have never been great at adhering to the QT method but after all this talk of the detriment that these mites cause I am going to do it. I have a CSL PC hood with 2 28 watt PC in it. I am going to use this as the light for the QT (left over from my old refugium) and QT the stuff I get from now on.

I am going to keep the tank free of corals then for a week! and during that week I will set up the QT and put in my soli frag and a few others that I have waiting for me.

I guess I just panicked a bit last night when I looked and saw those buggers (no pun intended) in my new tank!! I figured if I am going to spend the money on all aquacultured stuff then I am not letting two litle frags start me off on a disaster!

So I will QT all things wet (like Anthony says)

 

[reedman]

Mike, here's a link to the thread where I asked Anthony Calfo what his ideas behind the red bugs are and what can be done to mitigate them without throwing a dog medication into the tank. Another perspective to consider.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5638

 

[Mike HArrington]

Well I ahve teh QT tank and a maxi jet 1400 for circulation. Using a 2-24 watt pc hood from CSL. I think that QT all teh acropora before they go into my tank is the best method. I have a bali slimmer frag in there now and no S/SX of redbugs!!

 

[middletonmark]

Good luck with it. I had difficulty finding them on a number of corals that showed multiple signs of them [loss of underbody color, zero polyp extension even at night, lack of growth over a 4 month period].
Except for one coral in my tank, I never could locate one on my corals. That frag was obviously infested, with complete loss of coloration [beyond zoox, very pale too] on the most heavily infested areas.

I sat on the fence about treating for quite a while. Nearly did the Iodine method but after talking with enough people 6+ months past the treatment in person ... I treated and am happy I did.

As all my Acros are from frags, no acro crabs to worry about. Lost nothing more than a couple emeralds and all the Red Bugs. I sure wouldn't change from Dustin's forumula, though!

I did it at the end of my Acropora stocking/trading phase, with only a couple frags coming in from known tanks, all treated. Anything else would be QT'ed + likely precautionarily treated.

My experience follows Ereefic's + others. I can't `prove' that the RB's hurt the corals, but previously + since very healthy rapidly growing/colored corals just sat like non-fuzzy sticks, losing color, for a few months. I doubt they'd die as conditions were good ... but sps tanks really aren't as much fun when they don't grow or color up nice ... and I found a direct link between the bugs presence and those things going on. Maybe they're just party poopers?

 

[reedman]

Here's another thought for you all to ponder...and take it the right way...I am just trying to think out loud and get feedback from the many minds that are here.

What if the natural predator to red bugs is what we consider a pest...say, flatworms or something of that nature? We erradicate them because they are "harmful" to our treasured SPS only to allow a bug population explosion. Perhaps these bugs have always been in our tanks, but in very small populations and kept in check with natural predators, as in nature (I suspect).

Think of it this way. A new born baby is kept in a sterile environment and not exposed to any pathogens through vaccines or natural exposure. Then you transport that baby to what looks like a clean room. The room is clean on the surface, but has previously housed people with colds and coughs. The baby, which has no built up imunity and no protection from an air purification system, now get sick very easily and could die from a simple cold.

Same thing possible in our tanks? Not sure. Just a thought.

Similarly, you can see all kinds of examples in nature where man has removed a natural predator only to find a new problem with the population of the prey growing out of control. Think rabbits when a wolf population in culled.

Finally, some sites/people are claiming that pipefish are a natural predator for the red bugs. My conclusions from this are either the bugs are not normally around SPS and typically exist in very slow moving to stagnant water and the pipefish do prey on them. Or, the pipefish are not a natural predator and they just happen to be the easiest thing in the tank for them to eat, therefor they eat them. I don't think you would see pipefish out on the reef front where you see the SPS species that are being effected by red bugs in the aquariums today.

What do you guys and gals think? Is it possible that we kill off the natural predator in trying to provide the best environment for our corals only to introduce a population boom the ends up being detrimental to them (by some accounts)?

Again, just trying a new angle.

 

[NaH2O]

Good points, Reed. I often wondered if they/Red Bugs have been present for longer than we've known about them, but because of their size, no one noticed......then the person unknowingly came up with other causes for their corals being "sick".

As for a natural predator in our systems that we eliminate.....could be, but if it was something we consider a pest, i.e. flatworms, as you mentioned, then tanks without pristine water conditions (dirty tanks) wouldn't have them. I'm not sure, though. I'll toss out a hypothetical situation - could the red bugs be eating a zoox that is more prevelant in a closed environment?

 

[reedman]

Quite possible Nikki. It's also been proposed that the bugs are eating dead coral tissue similar to how bristleworms eat dead matter. I've seen where someone likened this to seeing a bristleworm look like it is killing a clam, when in fact it was eating dead matter as the clam died. It wasn't harming any healthy specimens. If these bugs are just eating dead/dieing material, then perhaps they are no so much of a detriment, but an indicator of how healthy/unhealthy our corals are.

 

[fishermann]

Reed I don't believe that to be the case, I have acros that are lightly colored and none of them have bugs at all. My corals polyp out full of polyps. My Lps in the tank are doing great, so I believe that my tank is in very good shape,but the neon green acro and most of the blue to purple tinted ones are not extending their polyps like they used too and some have died and others are losing their color and have quit polyping alltogether. Some have more bugs then others on them, seems the bluer they are the more bugs. I had no trouble until about 4 months ago when I got two different acros from a friend and they both happen to be blue in color and I believe that is when I got the bugs. I had blue and purple acros that were thriving and now that I look back in my record books my problems as best I can remember started shortly after that time. I have no proof to any of this other then it is one h--- of a coincidence. Just my experiences with these little red @###

 

[reedman]

Sounds reasonable John. I'm still looking for answers myself. They do seem to be meddlesome, but not to the point of putting interceptor in my tank yet. I don't have the same negative effects that most people seem to be seeing, but then again, I might be in the beginning stages and I'm in for hard times. We'll see. I hope you can get your tank back into shape soon. I hate to see anyone suffer losses.

Best of luck

 

[fishermann]

Reed I'm with you on treating the main tank. I sure don't at this moment think it is a good idea. I am going to see if I can do it in a seperate tank after reading more and seeing if I get the infected corals out and treated if that rids the main tank or if they come back or move on to some of the other acros that they haven't bothered so far. I am setting up a new 225 and I sure don't want them going into that one when I move things over.

 

[middletonmark]

Reed - I'm glad you are the `lemming watcher' as this isn't something I think anyone should bandwagon along with and just do.

Frankly, as ALL future Acropora might be problematic ... QT procedures etc must be considered and put into effect to avoid any re-introduction.

There may be side affects, and for those who have wild colonies and acro-crabs ... further issues removing them.

But like fishermann ... I didn't think I had them, thought all those dog-drug people were crazy. Then I saw them, and started seeing their effects. The light went off, and I realized that I had seen about 4 corals change remarkably a few months prior and had been static ever since with all the symptoms.

I'm darn happy caution and consideration are being suggested here. That is wise. I debated treating for a few months ... and was very skeptical and questioning of the whole method for quite a while.

That said, I don't think they're something we lack a predator for ... but it's like many biological pests. We've created an ideal environment for it, with less flow, far less potential small-life predators [less than ocean diversity] ... and huge densities of a wide range of Acropora all situated within feet of each other.
I guess I see it like head lice. Most adults don't have them ... but in the north, in winter, at schools - they show up from time to time as conditions are right. We've created an environment for them to spread and thrive ... when they show up they spread fast.

Just a take on it ... but I tend to think we've created ideal worlds for pests with our aquaria and frag-trading.

Anyway, more rambling on it ... for me, the only way to deal was interceptor. I too heard about pipefish/etc as predators ... but purchasing more livestock to deal with something like this seems like I'm gambling with a creature's life.

Interesting discussion here. All I say is that from now on ... RB's are not inevitable. I've secured the border crossings

 

[NaH2O]

Mark - good post! I, too, am securing the border. I really hope the awareness of these guys increases....it isn't something LFS tell you about, so unless you are reading on reefing boards, I don't know how you would learn about them.

What I've found interesting, if you look at the poll on the home page, there are far more people that don't mind having the bugs, then that have them and treated or are treating. Maybe I'll post the poll again in a year's time.....see if those numbers change.....see if the "Yes, I have them but don't mind" group change their mind after the corals have the bugs longer.

I think every SPS keeper needs to have a really strong magnifying glass or a jewelry scope thingy......to inspect all incoming corals for these things. Until you see them, you can't believe how small they are.

 

[fishermann]

Well after weighing all the options, like larvae, eggs and so on I have decided to treat the tank as I think it is to late to do it in a seperate tank. I measured the inside deminsions of the tank W x H x L, div by 231 and my 75 suddenly became a 67, I did the same for the sump. I figure I have approx. 70 to 75 actual water volume when you figure for the LR in both. I found a vet in Mt. Vernon who carried Interceptor,since no one here in Anacortes does and explained to them what I was doing and told them I would bring the lit. over on it, they wouldn't give me the time of day. I kept calling around and finally found another vet that carried it and said I needed to talk to the vet and didn't say why on the ph., anyway I went over with paperwork in hand and showed it to the vet and they sold me a pack of six for 56 bucks.

I have removed the felt sock and the poly pads, lowered the skimmer neck so the skimmer is still running but no skimmate. I had it figured a 1/4 tab well treat approx. 95 gals. since Dustin says one of the big pills well treat approx. 380 gals. I cut a little less then 1/4 of a tablet with the pill cutter and crushed it and desolved it in a pint of RO/DI water. It has been about 1 hr. and the little buggers are still on the corals They stick our quite noticeably on the green neon acro, also there are alot on it since it is about 6" across.

Well I don't like doing this, this way but I have seen2 blue acros turn almost completely white with no polyp externsion, My blue tort died and I do not want to loose anymore and am convinced that if I didn't do this I would loose others. Maybe I'm just lucky and got the bad ones, but atleast I know now what was happening, as it was driving me crazy why my blue acros were going south on me. I should read RC more often but there just doesn't seem to be enough time in a day when your self employed. If Nikki hadn't had it on our boards I may still be wondering what was going on, for that I thank her!!!!

I well post what transpires as I do this for those interested.

 

[NaH2O]

john - good luck with the treatment. Take some photos if you can, so we can see the difference once the corals begin to color up again. Do you plan on doing the follow up treatments?

For those interested in beefing up your pod population after treatment, here is a link to one of our sponsors: Ocean Pods

 

[mattseattle]

hey john - i just ordered my interceptor today so i'll do my treatment next week.

let me know how everything goes......

 

[fishermann]

Nikki Haven't decided yet for sure but am planning on doing them if things go well this time. I just went over and looked again and it seems to be doing it. The greenie has quite a few left on it but alot less then there was for just being 1 1/2 hrs, and mavbe my imagination but the one side that the polyps were not extending on are starting to poke their little heads out again. Everything seems fine so far like everyone has said.

 

[fishermann]

Yeh I'll keep you posted Matt as I know people want to know about this. Nikki I would post pictures but I and computers don,t get along when it gets to involved like posting pictures, I can barely get them in to "MY PICTURES". Well have to get someone to show me how someday.

 

[mattseattle]

for the cost of a beer I'll drive up and show you how to post pictures!

Yeh I'll keep you posted Matt as I know people want to know about this. Nikki I would post pictures but I and computers don,t get along when it gets to involved like posting pictures, I can barely get them in to "MY PICTURES". Well have to get someone to show me how someday.

 

[fishermann]

Heck When can you come? I'll buy you all the beer you want he-he. I love talking to other reefers and hashing things over, and would love to know how to post pics.