Red Bugs - Inevitable?

[mattseattle]

I PM'ed ya.....you might want to remove your phone # from the post though and PM it to me.

 

[fishermann]

I replied I think Matt to your PM, it doesn't bother me posting my nbr heck i'm in the ph book.

 

[fishermann]

Well I'm back, have been really busy and haven't had time to post. I treated last Thursday with the intercepter and like the other post, its no big deal. I screwed up in two ways though and had red bugs back the next day, though about 10% of what I had and the corals were looking a whole lot better. Where I screwed up was I forgot to turn of my UV lite, which I'm not sure how that effects the intercepter, but I also took the cup off of my ER6-2+ skimmer and lowered the outlet neck to its lowest postion to keep the bubbles low in the chamber, because I had read where you want to treat the skimmer also. Well I looked at things about 3 hrs. in and everything looked fine, nothing stressed and everyone just going about their bussiness. I let it run for 7 hrs. and went to add carbon and the poly pads and to set the skimmer back and put the collection cup on and there was a bunch of brown bubbles and skum in the skimmer chamber, so a lite went off that I had probably lowered the concentration of the intercepter in the tank because most was probably inside the skimmer chamber and not being able to get out.

I thought it was not going to have a lasting result and I was right. They came back the next day but like I said above a lot less and the corals were really perking up and polyped out alot more, so I was really encouraged by what results I was seeing. Well anyway I didn't change any water I just put carbon and the poly pads in and waited till the next day and treated again, only this time I just turned the skimmer on for a min. every hr. or so to turn the water in the chamber over. It has been 5 days now and the blue corals that I thought were done for I put down as low as I can in the tank and I think they may stand a chance. I'm not sure if its wishful thinking or I think I am actually seeing some color coming back and darker blue spots where the polyps should be. I did a 10% water change Sunday and haven't touched it since and everything seems fine and no bug so far anywhere and I have been lookinf hard. The corals are starting to polyp up alot more like they used too and the colrs are getting better too.

Other then if there is any down the road effects, which in my opion I really don.t think there well be, and that is just based on that nothing was acting stressed at all. My main concern I think is not the tank and the bio system as much as what effect this med well have on the heart and organs of the fish? I know alot of people including myself think that copper shortens a fishes life span and I am wondering about this stuff?

I think I well wait and see if the bugs show up again before I treat again, can't do any harm.

 

[Illusion]

I personally think that If it was going to have an Effect on the Fish that it would have long term Effects on dogs... I think with most everything drug wise they make sure that its completely safe to the Environment before releasing it as well..

James

 

[fishermann]

I was just raising a question. You are probably right but it is a prescription drug and if you have heard the news lately I think Merc and Pfizer proved tha tnot to be the case,and I don't think I would want to take the tablet myself. The body fluid makeup of a fish I am sure is not the same as a dogs. I am not disagreeing with you, It is just a point to think about.

 

[Illusion]

WEll I figured now would be a better time than anything for me to share... A LFS down here has hooked up with a Vet to get use the Meds at a really really cheap price and LEGAL!!!... Here is a link to what he posted over on our new site..

http://pnwmas.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=98&sid=addd22ae21b5b705dcfa484eecd50bdf


James

 

[fishermann]

James that is good news, I paid 56 for my 6 pk and had to hunt to find a vet that even carried it anymore, and then one that would sell it to me.

 

[EricHugo]

In a nutshell, here is what I have found. These are true parasites of Acropora - and probably undescribed. They are Acropora-specific, and I have tried to get them to host on various Montipora, Porites, Pocillopora and Pavona. They die before they will move onto these corals, even when forced or placed onto the corals. They only parasitize Acroporids with enough coenosteum to move around (not the A. millepora type - I suspect they would get eaten). They sometimes can inhabit Acropora without causing much damage, or they can damage them to the point they die. They will die without a host in typically 3 days, though I have had some show signs of life (barely twitching, unable to swim) at five days. They swim well, and if you take a coral out of the tank, some hunker down tightly to the coral, others bail off and swim to another. They will not live in the tank without a host, though. They are direct developers, so no larval stage to worry about (females have a brood pouch, I got nearly 20 from 5 adults after two weeks). There are several other red bugs that aquarists have erroneously concluded were these parasties, commonly seen on the glass of tanks. They are not the same bug. A quick view through a scope will confirm that. I have seen at least three others, not one of which was even close. Also, the red color of some these is deceptive...they do not have the distinct red spot, but are sort of a uniformly ruddy brown.

Interceptor works very well, even at 5 x recommended dose (Dustin Dorton), and does not seem to affect corals at all, even after 24 hours at 5x dose. Thus, it is "coral safe' but is not "reef safe." It kills all crustaceans we have seen - other amphipods, crabs, shrimps, etc. It kills polychaetes. It kills at least some snails (small Trochids). If you treat the tank, be ready to say goodbye to all those things, and if the populations of those things are large, you could have a major nutrient issue when all the worms, etc. die (at the very least). I would recommend you treat the affected corals outside the tank, and then wait the three to five days before putting them back in the tank. Examine all colonies closely with a lens to be sure there are no stragglers. Some die while ensnared on the skeleton - a probe with a needle will determine if they are still alive or not. I have not seen the need to do three treatments as has been suggested - that was based on the assumption there was a larval phase, or eggs, which there aren''t. But, the Acro crabs are going to be an issue. These may perform a grooming role that could inhibit current and future infestations. You could try to get them out - maybe freshwater dip to get them to bail?? But, that might stress the corals a lot. I don't know what to say on that one.

As to what they are...I have sent samples to Ed Hendrycks and Sara LeCroy - both specialists of amphipods. With the samples to Sara, I sent a copy of the article describing Teastes acroporanus. Sara said they were amphipods, looks like Tegastes desribed but the fifth maxilliped is different. Thing is, Tegastes is a genus of copepods, not amphipods. She thought it was probably a new species. Ed confirmed it was an amphipod...also thought new species. Both pointed me towards JD Thomas at Nova Southeastern. So did Steve Cairns at the Smithosonian. So did Les Kaufman at Boston University where the late Arthur Humes worked (who described T acroporanus and did 99% of the world's work on parasitic copepods of corals). Thomas has been hard to reach, but I sent him another email yesterday.

If I cannot get someone to help me describe them, I will do it myself - or try at least.

I have also killed them with high dose Lugol's - very effective, but hard on the corals.Have done trials with five other drugs as dips - variably successful or stressful to the corals. Also, purchased several other drugs as systemic treatments, including a newer and mre potent version of ivermectin. Have not done any trials with them yet.

These bugs are a major pain. Best solution is very careful examination of any Acropora colonies prior to them going into your tank...especially tank-reared fragments. Hope this helps....let me know if you need more info, or have questions.

 

[NaH2O]

Wow, Eric! Thanks for contributing on this thread. Any thoughts as to what the bugs are doing to the coral (i.e. eating tissue, just an irritant, etc.)?

 

[EricHugo]

I sent some video to Mike for uploading. You can see for yourself. They are digging, clearly, into the coral tissue. I think those excellent microscopy photos in the first post are very telling - the epiflourescence shows red in the gut, and chl shows up red. Zooxanthellae would be my guess given the digging, the fluorescence in the gut and the bleaching signs on infested corals. The thing that gets me is why, then, Acropora? As far as is known, I-P Acropora do not host a genus-specific clade of zoox - perhaps I should look to see what clade they do host, and see what other corals have that clade and offer those corals to the bugs. Perhaps the distinct smell of Acropora is their cue, and not the zoox. I don't know.

 

[reedman]

Excellent info Eric! Thanks. This is the first scientific based infomation that I have seen published that is compelling enough for me to seriously consider treating. Many thanks for your efforts on these little demons.

 

[Stircrazy]

They only parasitize Acroporids with enough coenosteum to move around (not the A. millepora type - I suspect they would get eaten).

thanks for the info it is good reading, We have confirmed the presence of these bugs on A. millipora as well so you can add that one to your list.

Steve

 

[middletonmark]

Thanks for the further update, it's nice to learn more about these guys.

 

[EricHugo]

Can you give more information on the bugs on A. millepora? What other type and how many of Acropora were in that system? i.e how bad was the infestation or how many other potential hosts were available? That is interesting, because I have not seen them go onto this group even when lots were available.

 

[mojoreef]

here are some pics for ya

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2003/feature.htm

 

[mattseattle]

They didn't touch either of my Millepora's but they definitely got on my other acro's in large number. I did the treatment twice and tank has been red bug free for well over a month now.

 

[sharks]

WOW thanks for the update Eric and all the legwork you are doing in this area.
I treated my tank twice and I'm now parasite free for a few months.
Just the fact that there is no larval stage is great news. Now we know one strong dose in enough.
I treated lightly but lost all the acro crabs. Then I started to add more hermits thinking they were gone.
Little buggers came back and I lost more money in hermits on the second dose Grrr...
So now when an aquarist is ready to forgo the loss in inverts they can just do a one-time dose and start repopulating the collection after a week or two.
Great info as usual
Keep up this much needed study.
Thanks,
Mark

 

[mojoreef]

Ok let me try this here is a movie of the mite chowing on a acro

movie

Mike

 

[mattseattle]

Movie's not working. It's asking me for a password.

 

[mojoreef]

Damm ok I will have to wait for chuck to put it in the right place. sorry

Mike