Red Bugs - Inevitable?

[Elmo18]

are citron goby or crown goby eatting the bugs,?

They do not Dang

- Elmo

 

[tamarindthai]

my did ,,they 're all around nipping all the bugs..i saw it ,,first i throught they are bothering the coral,,but they are eating the bug.the balance of nature?

 

[NaH2O]

Wow, Dang! That's really cool. I haven't heard the goby's eat the bugs, but there are definately exceptions to the norm. I've only heard about a pipefish eating them.

 

[clownnrnd]

I buy probably 90% of my livestock online and have used numerous vendors. I think we all need to be responsible for the animals we put in our tanks and quaranteen. I don't frequent alot of LFS so idon't know if they quaranteen. I would think if they did it would have to be a quit large set-up by the time you figure compatibility issues for fish and corals. I have bought from OLV big and small and can tell you you can't trust everybody just becouse they have a "good reputation". Don't get me wrong ther are good LFS and OLV out there. How does that saying go? A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of ?. Has anyone had any longterm success w/ the coral dips (seachem dip,Lugols solution or others)?

 

[reedman]

I've heard reports that the yellow clown gobies can eat the bugs and also some reports of micro hermits eating them. These were isolated cases though and not repeated readily. I wonder if the bugs simply move to another acro to avoid the gobies/hermits or if they are truely eliminated through predation. It would be nice to see a natural predator for the bugs though.

 

[flip_3_6_0]

If the red bugs irritate the coral then wouldnt a fish picking the bugs off the coral be just as irritating.

 

[flip_3_6_0]

also, i just found these bugs on my acros day before yesterday so i hope we can keep this thread going. it might prove to be very useful to me..

 

[Elmo18]

my did ,,they 're all around nipping all the bugs..i saw it ,,first i throught they are bothering the coral,,but they are eating the bug.the balance of nature?

You sure they're not cleaning an area to put a nest on??

- Elmo

 

[NaH2O]

I wonder if the bugs simply move to another acro to avoid the gobies/hermits or if they are truely eliminated through predation.

Good point. I believe it was Eric Borneman (not 100%...can't locate the thread at the moment), that stated in one of the threads, when the coral was disturbed/moved, the bugs basically jumped ship.....heading to another Acro. I suppose this might explain the bugs disappearance on the coral with the gobies.

If the red bugs irritate the coral then wouldnt a fish picking the bugs off the coral be just as irritating.

I could see this, however, I think it depends on the fish and its mouth....how is it picking at the bugs? Good thought - either way the coral may not fair very well.

 

[CarlaW]

Good point. I believe it was Eric Borneman (not 100%...can't locate the thread at the moment), that stated in one of the threads, when the coral was disturbed/moved, the bugs basically jumped ship.....heading to another Acro. I suppose this might explain the bugs disappearance on the coral with the gobies.



I could see this, however, I think it depends on the fish and its mouth....how is it picking at the bugs? Good thought - either way the coral may not fair very well.

I was just cruisin another thread somewhere else, and the person was blaming his gobies for spreading the bugs. If the gobie disturbs the coral, which they have been known to do, the bugs move, thereby creating a worse infestation.
Dang, do you still have the red bugs?

 

[SueT]

I can say that I have had 1 infestation of the red bugs. It was very small in that I only saw less than a half dozen bugs. I had been looking til my eyes crossed but the moment I saw them I knew it was the red mites. I also only saw them on 2 frags I have compared to a tank full of over 50 frags. IME, these bugs will only migrate to purple colored corals. The 2 infected were a cerealis frag and an unknown purple with blue tip frag.

I did the interceptor treatment but I only did 1 instead of the 3 recommended by Dustin. This did kill the ones I had and I have not seen any more thus my not wanting to do anymore. I did not loose my blue legs although they did seem stunned for a couple of days. I also did not loose my cleaner shrimp but did loose my acro. crabs. Most of my pods made it too. I did the 6 hour treatment and then did the recommended 20% water change and carbon change.

I don't to this day know exactly where my bugs came from. I also believe it's necessary to treat your sps reef if you see any harm being done to your stock. I had started to notice coloration loss and a general "not doing as good" effect on my tank and that was only after my seeing them and starting the treatment the very day I saw them.

 

[CarlaW]

Sue, the 2 frags that had the bugs in my tank were yellow colored, so I don't think they are color specific. I lost both of the frags after I put them in a Q tank. Now I am gonna be checking things real close in my tank, that's for sure!!

 

[SueT]

Hi Charlie, after reading so much about these red mites and the idea they do infect purple to blue colored acropora more so than other colors thats why I kept checking these 2 frags I had. The local friend who had treated his reef before me told me the dosage and thats what I used. He also had the same response of colored corals being affected more than lesser colored corals.

Were these frags always yellow??? I was wondering if they lessened in coloration due to the bugs.

I can say if they show up again I'll have no hesitation in treating. I watched my reef tank almost minute by minute through this whole thing. I could see the bugs being slimed off mid treatment. The minute the water change was over and even more so during the treatment I could see polyp extension from these infected frags.

 

[CarlaW]

Sue, yeah these were yellow. One of them was a purple tip and the other was kind of a blue tip. When you treated your tank, what effect did it have on your other inverts, crabs etc.?

 

[SueT]

Charlie, the only thing I lost was a crab I didn't even know I had. It was kind of wicked looking so I wasn't too upset. I had a couple of acropora bandit type crabs that I did loose. Nothing else was harmed. I checked that night with my flashlight and my pods were swarming. I don't know what percent of them I lost if any. The blue leg hermits seemed stunned as I thought they were all dead, but after a day or 2 they began to move and all made it.

I'm just glad I didn't start taking them out.

 

[Illusion]

I personally have not seen them take any liking to any specific color Acro... I had them on my Blues, My yellow tort, My Tenius and several others... Color does not matter to them... I know these are the true colors too... They show up better on the lighter color corals... And tend to stay away from the fuzzier corals such as Milliporas...

James

 

[PrimalScream]

Dont know what the long term effect of these critters on acro's are or what long term problems of using interceptor is...

But on my acro's these bugs were causing a severe loss in color, polyp extention was almost non-existant, growth came to a screaching halt. So while they might not out right kill a coral I am figuring they cant be a good thing.

I just got through doing battle with these guys on 36 SPS colonies and won (so far...havent been able to find any of late). With the amount of money I have invested in my tank I would have used interceptor in a hearbeat if I could have gotten my hands on it!!! Instead I had to settle for dipping and thoroughly rinsing each coral in Lugols and placing all of them in a QT tank, no small task for that many coloinies. It was a nightmare to be sure. Luckily I only lost one colony, a ORA Torquoise Bali Staghorn. The remaining colonies have colored back up, showed some growth and great polyp extension. Guess it was a small price to pay to save the rest...

I originally got them through an on-line vendor from 5 frags I ordered as best I can determine. Since that little run in I am now dipping and QT all corals for 4 weeks and look them over with a magnifying glass, before adding to my tank now. I do have to kinda agree that with all of the frag trading going on and the buying of frags on-line I think its just a matter of time before someone gets them in there system. I work at a LFS and I will tell you straight up that most do not have the space or the equipment to QT live stock. Its just an unfortunate fact....

 

[NaH2O]

I have been researching the mode of action of milbemycin oxime, which is a macrolide (active ingredient in Interceptor®), and how it would work against red Acro bugs. Here is a description from American Veterinary Board of Toxicology {even though the description is in regards to ivermectin, it is in the same group of macrolides as Interceptor®, and the mode of action is the same}

An agonist for the neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA). GABA is a major inhibitory neurotransmitter. In mammals, GABA-containing neurons and receptors are found in the Central Nervous System; while in arthropods and nematodes GABA is found primarily in the Peripheral Nervous System (neuromuscular junction). This difference in location of GABA receptor may be the reason for the large margin of safety of ivermectin-containing products in mammals [my emphasis]. The binding of ivermectin to a neuronal membrane increases the release of GABA. GABA binds to the GABA receptor-chloride channel complex of postsynaptic neuronal membranes causing an influx of chloride ions. The influx of chloride ions hyperpolarize the neuronal membrane making them less excitatory and decreasing nerve transmission. The hyperpolarization of neuronal membranes (at the NMJ) mediate a flaccid paralysis in arthropods and nematodes.

This explains why crabs and other crustaceans seem paralysed, because in fact they are.

My next question that I'm trying to track down info on, is resistence development. If treatment isn't followed through with subsequent doses, as in Dustins instructions, then would we be developing resistant strains? I'm unsure of the effect on arthropods, but it seems logical from a nematode standpoint (in the dry world). Again, I don't know for sure, but with all the frag trading, and chances of someone getting a reinfection being high, could we end up developing a group of resistant acro bugs?

 

[reedman]

What conditions do these animals need to thrive?
What is the life cycle?

I think this is the question that most energy should be spent on. We need to better understand the bugs before we try to erradicate them. Are they like fleas in that you can kill the adults, but the eggs, pupae/larvae survive?

And most importantly, What keeps these in check in the wild?
Something eats these in the wild. We may not be able to keep them in our tanks, but just knowing what eats them in the wild could help with a permanent solution.

 

[NaH2O]

Primal Scream - thanks for sharing your experience. What dip method do you use while the corals are in QT? If you have tried more than one, can you put info on what has not worked, as well?

Reed, really good points. I'll try and dig up some info (hypothesized) on the life cycle to post. I remember Eric Borneman posting his thoughts on the life cycle (aside from the 5 day survival without host).

I see for future frag trading - Acro keepers, a quarantine system will need to be in place (as we probably should be anyway), if one does not want them in the main tank.

I forgot to put this link up in my last post: Macrocyclic Lactones