Sand depth? Fuge? How much L. rock? Filters? Reactors?

[the6goat6man6]

sorry 40gal display 20/20

its good to know i haven't done anything to be too worried about. I do plan to set up my 150gal tall. So i will take all this into consideration when setting it up.

If i am relying on the DSB for filtration, how much should i have in the display? and very little in the fuge, about 1-1.5in? And about 1 lbs./gal Live rock? I am still unsure about flow, I read that total flow includes all pumps for movement too (main pump+hydors=total flow?). I was also told flow should be 10x? Then i was told not?

I'm not sure my exact flow-i use 2 koralia nano 240gph (switching back and forth)
1 power head 106gph behind rocks (switching)
1 external overflow 600gph max (valved down abit)

 

[mojoreef]

A dsb is a basically an enviroment for batecria to populate and reduce nitrogen based products. It has its limitations (as any natural filtration does) as in it doesnt reduce everything so their is an end product that just sinks, so a depth of at least 3 inches is what the DSB folks like to see, anything more then that is up to you. LR works the same way as the sand does but just a little less efficiently, so for me its not a matter of how many pounds but more or what you want your tank to look like (rock scapping). On the refugium, as discribed above its a place to create a refuge so that is your main concern.
On the water flow that would depend on what you are looking to keep. SOft corals and LPS corals live naturally in a moderate water flow enviroment, where has sps and similar tend to like higher energy reefs. As per a formula I am not sure. the concep is to keep enough flow in the water column to make sure the detritus/waste/food is suspended and thus available to the corals.

good luck

Mojo

 

[Krish]

I am still unsure about flow, I read that total flow includes all pumps for movement too (main pump+hydors=total flow?). I was also told flow should be 10x? Then i was told not?

I'm not sure my exact flow-i use 2 koralia nano 240gph (switching back and forth)
1 power head 106gph behind rocks (switching)
1 external overflow 600gph max (valved down abit)

When you say external overflow rated at 600gph max, does this mean you are using a return pump that puts out about that?? Let us know, but say for instance you do have a 600 gph return, your turnover rate would be 240+240+106+600=1186gph / 40 gal display = 29.6x turnover rate.

As for the flow in general, your main concern is trying to eliminate any deadspots in your tank. You want as much coverage as possible for a number of reasons. One would be going on the deadspot issue. Deaspots are usually problem spots where waste settles and rotts which degrades water quality. You keep the waste in suspension in the water column then there is more chances for it to be filtered out of your system. Another reason you want good flow is your corals will need it to bring their food to them as unlike fish, they can't swim about to catch their food. 10x turnover rate IMO is too little. You'd want to bump that up as I doubt seriously that 10x will give you the coverage you need. People vary with their opinions on what turnover rate is a good number to shoot for, but for me, I don't like anything less than atleast 40x. I've gone so far as to have a little over 100x turnover rate, but that may be a bit extreme for some . Every tank is different though and stuff like your rock work, flow placement etc all play a roll in how much flow you'd really need. Two tanks of equal size could both require different flow so if I were to advise anything, I'd say try and shoot for atleast 30-40x turnover rate and then go from there. You may be fine however starting out with only 10x I can almost guarentee you will realize you need a lot more than that.

 

[Krish]

LOL! Seems like Mike and I were replying at the same time. Guess he is picking up on his typing speed these days as he beat me to the punch

 

[the6goat6man6]

my over flow is rated for600gph, main pump is rated for 650gph(valved down and plumbing head loss) and my kordalia pumps are not on together.

When you say external overflow rated at 600gph max, does this mean you are using a return pump that puts out about that?? Let us know, but say for instance you do have a 600 gph return, your turnover rate would be 240+240+106+600=1186gph / 40 gal display = 29.6x turnover rate.

As for the flow in general, your main concern is trying to eliminate any deadspots in your tank. You want as much coverage as possible for a number of reasons. One would be going on the deadspot issue. Deaspots are usually problem spots where waste settles and rotts which degrades water quality. You keep the waste in suspension in the water column then there is more chances for it to be filtered out of your system. Another reason you want good flow is your corals will need it to bring their food to them as unlike fish, they can't swim about to catch their food. 10x turnover rate IMO is too little. You'd want to bump that up as I doubt seriously that 10x will give you the coverage you need. People vary with their opinions on what turnover rate is a good number to shoot for, but for me, I don't like anything less than atleast 40x. I've gone so far as to have a little over 100x turnover rate, but that may be a bit extreme for some . Every tank is different though and stuff like your rock work, flow placement etc all play a roll in how much flow you'd really need. Two tanks of equal size could both require different flow so if I were to advise anything, I'd say try and shoot for atleast 30-40x turnover rate and then go from there. You may be fine however starting out with only 10x I can almost guarentee you will realize you need a lot more than that.

 

[the6goat6man6]

i don't have any dead spots, i was also told that the 240gph koralia pumps would be to much, all my animals seem fine though. just had to do some rearranging at first.
ok my 150gal is 48wx24dx30t, not really sure how big of pumps should be used. when i first got into this hobby, someone had a magic "recipe" she went by length of tank, she did not consider hxd? that did not make sense to me

 

[Krish]

I had 4,000 gph in a 38 gal and everyone was happy so I'm sure the koralia's shouldn't be too much.

 

[the6goat6man6]

What kind of animals did you keep?

I had 4,000 gph in a 38 gal and everyone was happy so I'm sure the koralia's shouldn't be too much.

 

[bigblue141]

Only thing I would do differently is move the aragonite to your fuge.

I'd leave a 1.5-2 inches in your display (I like the look of a sandy bottom tank) and move the rest to your sump/fuge after you remove the crushed coral. I personally liked the grape as my tangs LOVED it, and wished it would of populated my tank a little bit better than it did.

As far as your flow, as long as you're not causing a sand storm, and you're not blowing the scales off your fish, I'd say you're good to go.

For power head placement I liked to point them at each other as they cause random turbulance with the two streams of water smack into each other. Biggest worry I had was I wanted to make sure I had good flow through all my rock work to ensure the water and nutrients passed over the critters feeding from the water column as well as making sure the bad stuff was getting taken care of by the bacteria that lives on the rocks. The second reason is I did not want to have a bunch of build up on my rock work.

 

[the6goat6man6]

Thats kind of what i was thinking, i also like the sand look. I am looking to keep softies and LPS, i'm just not sure how much they can handle?

Only thing I would do differently is move the aragonite to your fuge.

I'd leave a 1.5-2 inches in your display (I like the look of a sandy bottom tank) and move the rest to your sump/fuge after you remove the crushed coral. I personally liked the grape as my tangs LOVED it, and wished it would of populated my tank a little bit better than it did.

As far as your flow, as long as you're not causing a sand storm, and you're not blowing the scales off your fish, I'd say you're good to go.

For power head placement I liked to point them at each other as they cause random turbulance with the two streams of water smack into each other. Biggest worry I had was I wanted to make sure I had good flow through all my rock work to ensure the water and nutrients passed over the critters feeding from the water column as well as making sure the bad stuff was getting taken care of by the bacteria that lives on the rocks. The second reason is I did not want to have a bunch of build up on my rock work.

 

[the6goat6man6]

That sounds like a goo idea, I am just not sure how to go about removing all that substrate without stirring up all the nastiness into the water column. Should I remove the top layer of sand(from display) and set it aside, then remove the rest, one layer at a time? Then put it back in reverse order, to reduce the amount of nutrients released back into the water column? I think messing with a deeeep sand bed could be very risky! I had a Maroon gold stripped clown who liked to dig holes in the sand, deep hole, 4in deep. I had problems with nitrates until I installed some egg crate about 1in below sand serfice, to stop the digging.

Only thing I would do differently is move the aragonite to your fuge.

I'd leave a 1.5-2 inches in your display (I like the look of a sandy bottom tank) and move the rest to your sump/fuge after you remove the crushed coral. I personally liked the grape as my tangs LOVED it, and wished it would of populated my tank a little bit better than it did.

As far as your flow, as long as you're not causing a sand storm, and you're not blowing the scales off your fish, I'd say you're good to go.

For power head placement I liked to point them at each other as they cause random turbulance with the two streams of water smack into each other. Biggest worry I had was I wanted to make sure I had good flow through all my rock work to ensure the water and nutrients passed over the critters feeding from the water column as well as making sure the bad stuff was getting taken care of by the bacteria that lives on the rocks. The second reason is I did not want to have a bunch of build up on my rock work.

 

[clownman]

I agree about the sand bed being so deep. I would get the crushed coral out as for my tank and refugium it caused a spike in nitrates. Man what a pain and a lot of water changes to fix it. Tank looks nice.

 

[clownman]

You will need to go slow when removing any substrate so you don't throw your tank out of adjustment.

 

[mojoreef]

Personally I dont know of anyway to remove a established DSB from a main display with out killing the tank. The first 1/2 inch of the dsb is areobic and is well oxygenated and can be strirred/cleaned and so on. Below that is the anaerobic zone and it lacks any form of oxygen, with in it are nitrates, nitric oxide, nitrous oxide, ammonium and possible denitrogen gas, so when you expose that you are basically exposing all the citters with in your tank to those chemicals. A DSB is a sink naturally, it processes nitrogen based products and sinks the rest (which builds up as time goes by) because your bed is so deep you have a large sink (or bigger sponge) in the world of DSB thats not such a bad thing. The way I would look at it is that it is up and working and has a lot of clock left on it. Yes at some point your going to have to deal with it but not for a while. SO you can plan to deal with it now if you wish but if you do your also going to have to deal with the above.

Mojo

 

[the6goat6man6]

I do plan to move my live stock to my 150gal, when the time is right. I still have alot of planning to do. But for the most part I do plan to move most of it to the new display. So I should be all right to just leave it for now, the system is pretty stable for now. The only thing I have had any Issues with are Nitrates, never had phos. or nitrites.

 

[Krish]

I do plan to move my live stock to my 150gal, when the time is right. I still have alot of planning to do. But for the most part I do plan to move most of it to the new display. So I should be all right to just leave it for now, the system is pretty stable for now. The only thing I have had any Issues with are Nitrates, never had phos. or nitrites.

Yea, you should be fine for now till you get ready to move everything over to the 150 gal. Probably best to do it that way then to mess with things now and have to go back again and mes with things when you decide to transfer to the 150 gal. Just thought.

 

[the6goat6man6]

I think I have a good plan to remove what i want to, but, I just don't think it is worth what will probably happen. I think the DSB is supportting my system, as well as the crushed coral in the fuge. So, having to remove it so slow, by the time I get it done, hopefully I will be into the 150.

Here's my thought, just a thought,
For the display's DSB,--before water change
-remove all live stock, then water, as close to the DSB without getting sand. Maybe put a plate in the bottom to syphon from.
-then, very carefully remove the top 1/2 in of sand into a bucket of tank water to clean, stir and syphon water out, throw away water
-then the next 1.5-2in of sand, into sepperate container, put a couple inches of tank water on top, then put a lid on it
-remove and dicard the rest of the substrate, clean display tank with tank water
-take the last bucket of sand (middle 1.5-2in) and carfully put in the bottom of the display tank
-then put the top sand, after being rinsed with tank water, back on top of the "dirty" sand
-after all sand to be reused in back in the display, top off with dry, but rinsed with tank water "new"sand, about a 1/2in.
replace Live rocks

I don't know how it will work. It was just a thought, but if anyone thinks it may work, well I think I may try it once my 150 is up and running. Of course I will not be using any live stock for that experiment.

Does anyone think it may work?

 

[Krish]

I have no idea :lol:. I don't mess with sand at all!! I should learn a bit more about DSB's though it just to have a bit more knowledge on it. As far as sand is concerned, a shallow sand bed is all I've messed with and it's because you don't do anything with it, but vaccum the hell out of it LOL!

 

[the6goat6man6]

when I first started out I was having big troubles. I found someone who ran her own shop, aquaculture the whole nine. She said DSB was the only way to do it right! Then after following her recipe and still having problems, over the internet, she says, "sell what you have and start over". I haven't talked ot her since, did my own research, and well I don't have half the problems I did. But nitrates are still there, just not as high. And I am beginning the think she had me put too much sand in there. About 2-3in down you can see this ugly brown "stain" on the front. Since I've been here, I've been told a DSB is about 3in deep. She said 3-4in of fine grain sand & 3in of courser sand. I have about 6-7in of sand and I just don't like it. But I do like the look of some sand.
The funny thing is the person I was tgetting advice from said pick one person to "mentor" you, since finding Reef Frontiers, I've found it better to get more than one persons thoughts. Or better yet as MOJOREEF put it, the pros and cons.