SPS Tank Equipment Ideas

[Reef Monkey]

Hey Kevin, I was wondering what type of skimmer do you use on your tanks at Aquatic Dreams. I'm looking at setting up a 300 gallon SPS system and figured I would ask someone that has been successful in growing these types of corals. Thank you for any information that you can provide me with in advance.

 

[gary shandling]

The skimmer is for catching dissolved solids that fish produce. So the amount and size of your fish along with your water readings , mainly ammonia , should help. But its best to get a skimmer a little larger then your tank size.

SPS perfer good water circulation and consistant proper water readings and correct food source.

 

[Reef Monkey]

Thanks for the reply. Yeah I'm familiar with what a skimmer does I'm just curious what Kevin uses for a skimmer on his tanks at Aquatic Dreams.

 

[2thdeekay]

I'd like to ask the same question. Just like Reef Monkey, I'm shopping for a larger skimmer, and looking for the best value for a 300-400 gal system. Thanks!

 

[kevinpo]

Hello,
We use mostly Barr downdraft Beckett type skimmers. I just returned from MACNA and think that the recirculating needle wheel type skimmers show great promise. They use much less power, are available in short heights, and come in both in-sump or external models.

Regards,
Kevin

 

[2thdeekay]

I'd been looking at the MSX Extreme 250 & 300 models (Octopus Extreme 250 & 300 too). Wondering if anyone would recommend one over the other, or is there another brand that's more cost effective? TIA!

 

[Superfish]

the swc 300a has an askoll pump. SWC same as MSX, but personally like SWC more. Anyways the 300a is a MMMOOONNNSSSTTTEEERRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kevinpo]

Wow this thread is over one year old I would go with one of the Octopus recirculating type skimmers if I were going to replace the ones I have now.

Cheers,
Kevin

 

[cali_reef]

Kevin, you didn't sit in on Ken Feldman's talk on effectiveness of skimmers?

 

[kevinpo]

Kevin, you didn't sit in on Ken Feldman's talk on effectiveness of skimmers?

No I missed it. Do you have a link?

Cheers,
Kevin

 

[Skimmy]

Kevin, you didn't sit in on Ken Feldman's talk on effectiveness of skimmers?

obviously a subject close the the heart for me...

that's not the dork who did the completely un-scientific "research" on skimmers to conclude that they were not doing anything worth meriting their existence is it???
yes, link please.


I mean WTF, do i have to bust out a computer controlled gas spectrometer??? ...lol
any noob or neophyte can tell you the obvious visual benefit a reef system has with the addition of a good working skimmer.
and with SPS I think the judge and jury have proved that high level skimming is very beneficial to coloration as well as growth to say the least.

 

[plack]

A quick synopsis from someone and it's also in Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine :

http://www.princexml.com/howcome/2009/aquarist/AdvancedAquarist-2009-01.pdf

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/reefs-magazine/52125-fish-tales-mr-swap-news.html

 

[plack]

" In his experimental studies, he found that dissolved organic carbon (DOC) affected coral health more than many other compounds in our tanks,"

" and it can be removed from reef tanks with granular activated carbon (GAC). In another experimental study, he showed that tanks without skimmers that ran GAC had lower levels of TOC than tanks that ran skimmers without GAC."

" a study of four different skimmers based on different skimming technologies and found that there was very little difference between them and none of them removed more than 30% of the dissolved organic carbon in his reef system."

" His bottom line on skimmers was that the smaller the bubbles, the farther those bubbles have to travel to get to the skimmer cup, and the more water that can be held in the skimmer, the better the skimmer will skim regardless of its brand."

 

[plack]

While I did not get to hear from him I did read up on others reviews and His published articles. Here's what I thought

First I tried to find out what dissolved organic carbon is!

It is as I understand thing's the thousands of dissolved compounds found in water derived from organic materials as the result of decomposition of plant or
animal material.

He says it spikes around times when fish activity is higher--like feeding time and when the light's first turn on.

Also DOC can also promote the growth of microorganisms by providing a food source.

Since Organic content is usually higher in surface water than ground water Our Top surface Water filtration by skimming or Fine Granular activated carbon seem to work.

Since many of us use carbon to prevent, and aid in any chemical warfare it seems this is just confirming what we do.

Mearly Pointing out it could be more beneficial/important as first thought.


I believe skimmers do Have a valid place (he did not say they did not but just that DOC levels are more important and that they will only remove 30% so he kind of inferred they were not as great as we thought they are)

and I don't believe his experiment took into acount the volume of air taken in as well as the rate of the water going thru the chamber.

To Me I would rather see tank's with ONLY corals and different levels of doc.

Then look at the DOC with more emphasis on how it affected the coral growth if and when.

Perhaps introducing some DOC or Fish poop /coral food and watching what happens--?

Does it merly go thru a cycle as I suspect and benefit the coral up to the amount it could consume and then any amount over that point would be like waste and be harmfull.

I guess I really don't understand any particular benefit's from finding this out except to try adding more carbon to see if the growth rate increases?



Paul

 

[Pentagona]

I read the article and one thing that struck me was the number of assumptions he uses. While the assumptions may or may not be accurate, I think it prudent that in a "scientific" study, that any variable that can be measured or quantified should be. The other thing that struck me was the linear curve between initial saturation of DOC's used in his experiment using bovine proteins where all four skimmers removed 80+% of bovine DOC's vs the 30% claimed from actual reef water. I would have liked to see an extended time table with reintroduction of DOC's in a form more like what we use in reefs and find out if the total DOC mark after his initial reading was more of a plateau point for most skimmers, or if a blanket statement could be made that most skimmers will only remove 30% of any given number of DOC's over a specific period of time. If his initial tests with the bovine product holds true, and the linear curve of removal based on initial saturation is accurate, then it would seem to me that the 30% mark he comes up with would only be relative to the DOC saturation in the tank water he was using which may have had a low saturation to begin with.

 

[kevinpo]

Hello,
Thank you for the link. Let me read through the 54 pages and disseminate the data/information and I will get back with a reply.

Regards,
Kevin

 

[kevinpo]

Hello,
I have read the article but I don't have time to finish my response. I will tonight.

Regards,
Kevin

 

[cali_reef]

The take away message for me was the chart on page 22 of this article .

Skimmers can only skim out "hydrophobic" DOC. GAC can trap any form of DOC and water changes take everything out.

 

[kevinpo]

Hello,
I think the data and methodology are good starting points and prove how difficult it is to determine how effective your skimmer is and what size to purchase for a given tank size. From the data published I came up with quite a bit different conclusions however (as is often the case when interpreting large amounts of data).

Some observations that struck me as I read the article:
The large variance of the rates of removal of a given skimmer/trial (i.e. .51-1.22 k min-1). Is this a problem of the method of collecting, testing, or something else?

Most tanks are setup to feed surface water that contains higher concentrations of proteins to the skimmer but the test was conducted in an open bin. I would be curious to see if the initial rate of removal would be greater with surface collection.

When I clean my skimmers it takes 30-60 min. (est.) for them to return to normal operation. They cleaned and dried them before each collection test. While this may make the results more even between skimmers it may have skewed the collection rate and/or % numbers.

From the data you can see that as the water cleans the skimmer has trouble removing any more TOC when it reaches its plateau. I would like to see testing done that shows how a constant addition of TOC material (to keep it well above the plateau level) changes the collection rate over the course of one hour.

PH changes over the 24hr photo cycle impact the skimmers performance. It would be nice to see date from that time frame.

I think (and hope) that most skimmers have an adjustable gas rate. You can see from the data on the airstone driven skimmer that changes in the air pump PSI could make a dramatic impact on removal rates (see Table2). The range of the removal % of BSA was quite large from an average low of 56% to a high of 95%. That data tells me that not all the skimmers perform the same. This also holds true for the K min-1 date with the ranges from a low of .51 to a high of 7.9 (Tables 1a, 1b, and 2). My interpretation is that I would seek out skimmers that have an adjustable gas rate with some type of flow meter for ease of adjustment.

I would like to see some testing done with GAC running with and without ozone to determine if they enhance or detract form the TOC collection rates and/or plateau levels.

Overall I think the testing and article were well done and have plenty of valuable information contained therein. For me the data has me thinking, asking questions, and points in a direction that hopefully will allow me to make better purchasing decisions. It also gives a direction as to where further testing is needed. Isn’t that why we do testing? I’m quite sure there is no intention of Ken to promote the removal of our skimmers

Regards,
Kevin