treating w/coppersafe HELP!!!!!

[tmkx3]

I have been treating with coppersafe for about 4 weeks now(for ick). This morning one of my green chromis didn't come up to eat. He is hiding and when he swims he seems to sink. Is this a reaction to the copper? Should I remove it and stop treatment? I haven't seen ant ick spots since the third day of treatment but my tang has been rubbing a little. I think maybe the copper is starting to bother him. Is 3 and a half weeks long enough to have killed the ick?

 

[james734]

I'd stop the copper.

Why did you go 4 weeks? I'd only recommend 2 weeks with a copper treatment. Then 4-6 weeks of monitoring in QT to make sure it didn't come back.

What is your current copper level at rigth now? Copper can become very toxic at upper levels.

 

[tmkx3]

My copper level is 1.5. I thought I was supposed to treat for a month!!! Newbie mistake. Is there anything I can do for the chromis? He is beathing rapidly and trying to go to the surface for air. Has the copper effected his gills. Will they heal or have I signed his death warrant. I feel horrible. He didn't even have ick when I put him in the tank.

 

[james734]

1.5? Is that correct? Or did you mean .15? If it's 1.5 I'd say that's pretty toxic.

As for the Chromis... I'd get the copper level down to as low as you can and then it might be a wait and see. Time for a Partial water change to get the levels down if there are in fact 1.5..

 

[tmkx3]

no I mean .15 sorry. I have a 10g that I can move the chromis to but its not cycled will this be more stressful for him?

 

[james734]

.15 is barely anything and wouldn't be much of a concern..

What are your other levels @. Ph, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates. Salnity?

 

[jsmkmavity]

you may have some ammonia or other level out of normal range that is causing low oxygen or something. do a test for ammonia and a 50 % water change immediately and see how much the readings change and test for oxygen if you have the kit. also check the salinity and make sure you are on the low end of the normal range. no changes in parameters to rapidly but do get to normal levels soon. you can stop the copper and slowly start lowering the salinity over several days down to 1.015 if you have this for qt fish only and this will help them get rid of toxins they may have as well as killing the parasites. if this is your main tank leave it this way for another 3-4 weeks but do normal maintainance and no more copper. if this is a qt and you have no fish in the main it should be free of paracites in a couple more weeks with no fish to host on. get some good numbers together and then look for steve-s if you need more help or have more clues to whats going on.

 

[tmkx3]

my ammonia and nitrite are 0. My nitrates are high because I used 60% of the water from the main. There at 60 but I didn't think that nitrates really effected fish.Ph is 8.4 and salinity is 1.021 temp is 78. I have a 55 gallon qt. I am doing a 10g water change now and 10 more tomarrow. Will continue changes until copper is gone & nitrates are in check. Thanks for the tip on lower salinity.

 

[steve-s]

Please recheck what the level of copper was before you start the water changes if possible. Coppersafe (Mardel) should be maintained at 1.5-2.0 ppm for a minimum of two weeks to a maximum of three. The initial dosage is 1 tspn (5ml) per 4 gallons of actual water volume.

The biggest problem with this brand of copper is most test kits do not go as high as 2 ppm as they are meant for ionic coppers or similar. If your test kit did not go that high, you need to dilute your sample with 50% DI water. Once the correct color change occurs, you then multiply the result by a factor or 2 to get the correct reading.

Was there any sand or rock in the QT?

Irregradless of what level the copper was, I do agree it should be removed but I would hold off on lowering the salinity just yet. Be sure you add some carbon and do large water changes (25%+) with well aged/aerated SW. Once the copper is no longer detectable, wait a week or so and see what happens/developes. If you have not seen a sspot since the third day of treatment, most likely it's been dealt with. The behavour of the fish was a toxic water reaction.

Cheers
Steve

 

[tmkx3]

The test kit that I bought Has readings that ranges are like this 0.5, 1.0, 2.0 and then it jumps to 4.0. My range was between the 1.0 and the 2.0. I have started doing water changes to remove the copper. I am doing 10g at a time. The first water change dropped the copper level down to 1.0 or maybe a little lower. I hate test where you have to guess at a color chart. Is there a kit that is more accurate? I am doing another change today and will continue until copper is 0

 

[steve-s]

I hate test where you have to guess at a color chart. Is there a kit that is more accurate?

Hard to answer without knowing what brand/manufacturer your using now. generally speaking though, the best test kit is usually the one made by the same company which produced the copper treatment.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Sk8r]

Is this copper treatment in your main tank? If so, really major problem. If this is your qt tank, treatment has gone on too long. Keep reducing that copper to 0. You may have to observe them for a week or so and keep those parameters immaculate, with careful feeding and temperature monitoring. I would not put them into the main tank yet, because the copper may have caused issues that need to be watched closely.

Copper is a good treatment, but like many treatments for parasites, it is poisonous, and what you're betting on is the parasite dying before the fish does. Unlike arsenic, I believe copper will tend to excrete out, given good conditions. Your tang, if he's had the same treatment, may be scratching because his skin is uncomfortable: they don't produce as much slime coat as bottom fish. Also, tangs have a higher oxygen requirement than most fish, so you absolutely must make sure his water is oxygen-rich. Overfeeding in qt can really deplete oxygen.
In general, qt is for observation-only of a new fish. Do not treat unless illness manifests, for one thing, because copper only affects parasites: it will not cure diseases. So if something manifests, you diagnose first and decide on one of several treatments.
HTH.

 

[tmkx3]

The treatment is in a qt. I still have a month of my main being fallow so I won't be putting the fish back for a while. all the fish are doing fine except the one chromis. He is still in the corner at the surface and not eating. Thanks for youe help


Tinia

 

[Sk8r]

Hopefully he will respond. I take it there are other chromises. You might as soon as you get that copper level down try a tiny amount of some live food. That will sometimes perk up a flat appetite, but watch the filtration if you do.

 

[steve-s]

Has the copper been removed and what are the water quality numbers? Please include NH3, NO2, NO3, pH, temp and salinity.
What fish are in the QT other than the chromis and tang? Are any fish being aggressive at all?

Does the chromis exhibit any other symptoms? Rapid gilling, surface gulping, red marks/sores, scales on end or missing, white patch's or anything else you can see?

Cheers
Steve

 

[tmkx3]

readings:
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 40
ph 8.2
salinity 1.021
temp 80

fish:
2 perculas
3 chromis
1 coral beauty
1foxface
1powder blue tang

I don't see any visible signs like sores or missing scales. He does seem to be gilling. I put him in a breeders net because the other green chromis and the perculas were starting to pick on him. This morning he isn't in the corner but resting beside a piece of pipe I put in the breeders net. He still didn't eat.

 

[steve-s]

You should remove the fish from the breaders net. Confining fish like that can actually do more harm than good. If you need to seperate fish, either set up a seperate tank or use a tank divider so the fish do not feel closed in a stressed.

The chromis is most likely stressed from the possible crowding/aggression. Even though this is a 55 gal QT (?), that's still a decent amount of fish.

Keep up with the water changes (very important), leave the lights off, if the copper has been removed completely lower the salinity some as well. Downwards anywhere between 1.009-1.015. This will lower stress and help the fish in such a confined space. Keep an eye on the Chromis for any futher symptoms or unusual behavior. Be sure the foods fed are properly fortified and highly nutritious.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Boomer]

Just to throw in something. All copper's are not the same. As Steve has pointed out Copper Safe is 1.5-2.0 ppm. SeaChem is on the order of .4 ppm and ionic copper's like Copper Sulfate is .15-.25 ppm. Some of these copper's are chelated others are muti-chelated, some are complexed copper's and some are not chelated at all. If test kit x, y or x is used it may give false readings. A "pure" copper test kit will not measure chelated copper's and is really only specific to ionic cooper like copper sulfate. Usually the "copper" manufacture will tell you what kit to use. Some kits can meassure all forms.

 

[tmkx3]

The test kit I used said it was for chelated copper. The coppersafe didn't even say you need to test for levels. It seem like these companies should be held accountable for not stating clear or full instructions. Why don't they have to warn about the side effects?

 

[Boomer]

I have not seen recent instructions but older ones use to say 1.-2.0 ppm