Water Changes

[Krish]

I think you only have to shoot for most of those levels if you are keeping stony coral.
My softy tank does not get dosed with calc or alk so those levels are probably lower than NSW. Well I know they are lower than NSW.

My 75 is mixed and I dose to the lower-mid range of the ranges you noted and just keep them stable. I think the coral will adjust to those levels if acclimated well and as long as there is not drastic change will adapt and thrive at what ever level you you are keeping them at. I have a couple pieces of sps that has taken a long time to adjust I guess, because I got them almost a year ago and one has just recently colored up and has polyp extension and has started growing. Another one is coloring up nicely. Others are growing like crazy. I would think just keeping the levels stable is going to supply the coral with what they need.
We all love the different coral and we all put coral in our tanks that probable dont realy get along with each other, let a lone live in the same region so keeping it stable and not necessarily at NSW levels for one or the other type of coral is about all we can do, isnt it? With the exception of those that keep species specific tanks. I just might do that one day.

Good feedback Lorrie thanks!!

...so keeping it stable and not necessarily at NSW levels for one or the other type of coral is about all we can do, isnt it? With the exception of those that keep species specific tanks. I just might do that one day.

On this point, keeping it stable can cause some problems though. Stable at which levels? What about keeping the tank stable at a specific gravity of 1.20, calcium stable at 270 and say temp at 88F on a mixed reef just as examples? What happens here? Will everything adjust or will we have threads that we see all the time that say, "My corals are dying!" or "I lost a colony what to do?" First thing you hear people ask for is what are your water parameters? Why so if we don't shoot for something? Some replies you'd get would be stuff like "Ahh...I see your problem!". "Calcium is way too low". "You need to bring that up and your spacific gravity is way off bring that up slowly" etc so we have to shoot for something if we offer these suggestions as fixes for certain problems. By all means though stability is always key, but we must shoot for something and have some guidleline to go by...No? Guidlines like what I mentioned in what we consider the accetable range of parameters of NSW used in the hobby.

Just a few thoughts. Figured I'd just throw out some stuff to get the discussions rolling a bit

 

[akunochi]

How about let's tackle this statement for a sec as it is very interesting. If you have corals from all different parts of the world then how do you know what to shoot for with your levels? You have to shoot for something I'd imagine and have some guideline to go by wouldn't you? I mean I can't see you just grabbing a bag of salt and saying, "Umm...Lets dump two cups of salt in here today! That should do the trick and while I'm at it let me squirt some alk suppliment in there. You know what, I got a lot sitting around, let's make that two squirts!". I'm sure you nor anyone does this so where do you get your levels from (or should I say you and the other 80% of the people you say do this) concerning alk, calcium, mag, salinity, etc?? You have to go by some guideline which I'd imagine is what is considered the "general guildeline" of what NSW should be in this hobby which I think we'd all agree is close to these:

Specific gravity = 1.025/6 or 35ppt

Akl = 2.5 - 3.5 Meq/ l

Calcium = 410 - 450 ppm

Magnesium = 1300 -1350 ppm .

So, if I am reading your post correctly, 80% of the people in this hobby don't shoot for these levels (which is what we call "basic NSW parameters" for lack of a better term)???

Yes but what you are talking about is a standard not Natural Saltwater. My point was don't go chasing a standard that may or may not apply to your system. Lorrie has a point she has a all softy/LPS tank. Does she need a CAL level at 450-500? Nope. Each of our tanks is a unique eco-system where the only correct standard that can truly be applied is the one that you develop from success in your tank. To say to someone that you must maintain a system at these levels is ridiculous and could easily pull someone into a vicious cycle of Dosing that is unnecessary for their system. So yes you posted a general guideline that will be reached by using a pre-fab salt anyway.

 

[akunochi]

I would be highly interested for you to go test a sample of water where you are and then let me test a sample here and see how close we are to the same "standard"

 

[IPisces]

I would be highly interested for you to go test a sample of water where you are and then let me test a sample here and see how close we are to the same "standard"

This would be cool to know.
Maybe PaulB will post the results too of what the levels are in his area. Maybe I will swing by the beach on my way home and bag some water to test.

 

[akunochi]

Yeah I gotta go out later too....maybe I'll grab some over here.

 

[Krish]

Yes but what you are talking about is a standard not Natural Saltwater. My point was don't go chasing a standard that may or may not apply to your system. Lorrie has a point she has a all softy/LPS tank. Does she need a CAL level at 450-500? Nope. Each of our tanks is a unique eco-system where the only correct standard that can truly be applied is the one that you develop from success in your tank. To say to someone that you must maintain a system at these levels is ridiculous and could easily pull someone into a vicious cycle of Dosing that is unnecessary for their system. So yes you posted a general guideline that will be reached by using a pre-fab salt anyway.

I 100% agree that people keep things at different levels. That's not the issue. Take Fish only systems for example. They don't need half the stuff a full blown reef needs so that throws that right out of the window right there. Do 80% of the reefers keep just FO systems though? Nope! So those that keep corals shoot have to for something. I call it NSW that is used loosely in the hobby, you call it a standard so we will go with that. We mostly shoot for some standard then which are close to the ranges I mentioned? Right or wrong? You can't sit there and say the majority of people don't shoot for some "standard" especially in tanks that are mixed right up with all sorts of different corals needing different things. You have to find that right balance I'd imagine which would not be levels too far off of the standard accepted for keping a reef.

I would be highly interested for you to go test a sample of water where you are and then let me test a sample here and see how close we are to the same "standard"

Specific gravity here is 1.028. Not the same where you live I'm sure. Water temp here feels like a sauna, not quite as cold as it gets where you are. Everywhere is different I agree. It's a hobby though where we are trying to replicate nature as best we can. Some approach it from a wierd angle tossing in stuff that aren't found together nowhere in nature, but that's just the way the hobby goes. Everyone wants a piece of everything. On that same note, if you want to keep a variety of stuff, I'm sure that not 80% of the reef keepers out there don't shoot for a certain "standard" as you put it. The "standard" levels are probably put in place so that everyone can keep pretty much anything successfully. Like a happy medium.

 

[akunochi]

I understand perfectly what you are saying but you aren't understanding what I am saying. There is NO WAY anyone can say this is the proper standard of elements and traces needed in a reef system. It is completely impractical. NO WHERE IN THE WORLD DOES AN ECOSYSTEM LIKE A CLOSED SYSTEM REEF EXIST. NOWHERE. Who is to say that the standard to shoot for is 450 ppm calcium? My point is that in one region CAL may be at 550, another 250, another 600, and now you introduce livestock from all these regions into a system with 400ppm Cal? The only way you can establish a standard is to set the standard on a given set of parameters. IE Do you have a Caribbean only tank? The a Caribbean standard can apply to you. If there is no Constant you cannot establish a rule.

What I am getting at is the NSW standard is inaccurate because it was developed on a system that may or may not exist in YOUR system. Without keeping a region specific tank the only way to establish a standard is to develop it yourself.


Oh and I said 80% of reefers do not keep a region specific tank. IE the standard doesn't make sense because their system is unique among itself.

 

[IPisces]

On this point, keeping it stable can cause some problems though. Stable at which levels? What about keeping the tank stable at a specific gravity of 1.20, calcium stable at 270 and say temp at 88F on a mixed reef just as examples? What happens here? Will everything adjust or will we have threads that we see all the time that say, "My corals are dying!" or "I lost a colony what to do?" First thing you hear people ask for is what are your water parameters? Why so if we don't shoot for something? Some replies you'd get would be stuff like "Ahh...I see your problem!". "Calcium is way too low". "You need to bring that up and your spacific gravity is way off bring that up slowly" etc so we have to shoot for something if we offer these suggestions as fixes for certain problems. By all means though stability is always key, but we must shoot for something and have some guidleline to go by...No? Guidlines like what I mentioned in what we consider the accetable range of parameters of NSW used in the hobby.


Just a few thoughts. Figured I'd just throw out some stuff to get the discussions rolling a bit

Those guide lines you postd earlier are pretty much what you should strive for. At least somewhere close to that. And then keep stable once youve reached them, specifically SG along with PH and Ammo/Nitrites/Nitrates which you didnt list. Those levels will also have an affect on the health of coral.

 

[Krish]

To add to my last post, my point is not to argue that people don't deter a bit from the "standard" placed out there for people to keep there water parameters at. I'm sure many do. But...I'm pretty sure that not 80% of the people here just shoot for whatever because if they did, they are retarded :lol:. Everyone who jumps into this hobby uses this "standard" put out there as a guideline (which has been tested over the years and accepted) and then from there, they will make adjustments as they see fit as it serves their particular system best. You have to have something to go by in order to keep a successful reef tank. It can't be just whatever. So my point is simply, everyone I'm sure looks at the standard levels that are accepted in this hobby first as the levels to shoot for in the hobby and then work from there.

 

[akunochi]

Also I think somewhere along the lines my point was lost.

My original point was in regards to the fact that I don't test unless something looks wrong. I don't feel the need because I don't feel the above NSW standard should be worried about if your system is thriving.

 

[akunochi]

To add to my last post, my point is not to argue that people don't deter a bit from the "standard" placed out there for people to keep there water parameters at. I'm sure many do. But...I'm pretty sure that not 80% of the people here just shoot for whatever because if they did, they are retarded :lol:. Everyone who jumps into this hobby uses this "standard" put out there as a guideline and then from there, they will make adjustments as they see fit as it serves their particular system best. You have to have something to go by in order to keep a successful reef tank. It can't be just whatever. So my point is simply, everyone I'm sure looks at the standard levels that are accepted as the levels to shoot for in the hobby and then work from there.

I can agree with that and in relation my point was remember that standard isn't law it has to be adapted to you individual ecosystem.

To quote the Late Great TLC.....Don't go chasing waterfalls.... LOL

 

[IPisces]

Doesnt the Calcium level only really affect how fast the coral is going to grow. The higher calcium level the faster they are going to grow and some coral can grow too fast if calc levels are on the high side. A lower calc level, the coral could still be healthy and just grow a little slower?

 

[akunochi]

Doesnt the Calcium level only really affect how fast the coral is going to grow. The higher calcium level the faster they are going to grow and some coral can grow too fast if calc levels are on the high side. A lower calc level, the coral could still be healthy and just grow a little slower?

Actually there was a study posted up in the Advanced forum that stated high calcium stunted growth. Take that for what you will.

 

[mojoreef]

I would be highly interested for you to go test a sample of water where you are and then let me test a sample here and see how close we are to the same "standard" r.

Well that seems kind of silly?? Their is no way that the water will line up. The so called standard is taken from the area where most of us get our corals from. The vast majority of corals come from indo, aus, some from australia and so on, the salinity and make up of these salt water is is around 35-34 ppm. So if your keeping a reef with corals then you want to have a similar water make up. That is unless you are collecting from the East River Like Paul B or off the west coast here.

In the areas I mentioned above the natural levels of cal = 411, mag=1290, alk = 2.5 , so this is not some kind of standard it is what these critters hve evolved in and all we are doing is to keep our tanks to what is their natural parameters.

Lorrie has a point she has a all softy/LPS tank. Does she need a CAL level at 450-500? Nope

Well nobaidy needs to keep their cal at that level (but thats another discussion) But yea Folks that keep soft corals or hard corals should try to emulate the natural seawater that the corals come from. One has to remember that the composition of Saltwater (either natural or artifical) is put together in a balanced manner, and each element with in it interacts with all of the other levels with in the mix.

Mike

 

[Krish]

To quote the Late Great TLC.....Don't go chasing waterfalls.... LOL

Dude you need to let me hook you up with XM Satellite Radio or Sirius :rofl:

 

[akunochi]

Lorrie- Here is the link to Mojo and boomers discussion on Cal levels.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f69/calcium-inhibits-coral-growth-59056/

Mojo- That was my point. There is no way the levels would line up.

Sure a good portion of corals come from the AUS/Indo pacific rim, but even there the water is going to fluctuate between Java, Indonesia, Australia, or any of the other 32 importing grounds corals are brought in from.

 

[Krish]

Well that seems kind of silly?? Their is no way that the water will line up. The so called standard is taken from the area where most of us get our corals from. The vast majority of corals come from indo, aus, some from australia and so on, the salinity and make up of these salt water is is around 35-34 ppm. So if your keeping a reef with corals then you want to have a similar water make up. That is unless you are collecting from the East River Like Paul B or off the west coast here.

In the areas I mentioned above the natural levels of cal = 411, mag=1290, alk = 2.5 , so this is not some kind of standard it is what these critters hve evolved in and all we are doing is to keep our tanks to what is their natural parameters.



Well nobaidy needs to keep their cal at that level (but thats another discussion) But yea Folks that keep soft corals or hard corals should try to emulate the natural seawater that the corals come from. One has to remember that the composition of Saltwater (either natural or artifical) is put together in a balanced manner, and each element with in it interacts with all of the other levels with in the mix.

Mike

Guess it is a good thing I can't import corals. I am stuck with what is native to me and guess what? I don't shoot for the parameters that I find here in the wild where the frags came from, but I shoot for the "standard levels" we talked about and all did well so I guess this standard we talked about isn't so bad after all especially seeing all of my corals were obtained from the wild.

 

[Krish]

Now that I have thrown enough curve balls into this thread just for discussions sake, let's get it back on track!

Thank you Lorrie and Seth for your contributions. All in good fun and just to kinda take things outside of the box a bit. I want topics to expand in every possible direction so we can get the most out of the thread. I may even ask a questions I already know the answer to in order to get the discussion going and will play devil's advocate at times :badgrin:. In any event, I think it's a good way to get a topic discussed in full. When it becomes a mess, we know we have Mojo to come in and clean it all up


So back to water changes? Who else does them and why (for or against)?

 

[rainydave]

I do a 10 gallon wc on my 40b every 2 weeks or so. It's a habit I formed with my first BC8 and have continued it.

 

[akunochi]

On the subject of water changes has anyone automated theirs? I plan on trying to do it with my Apex controller later this year.