Water Changes

[Krish]

You have to admit though his tank does look pretty natural to what you might see on a reef...minus the bottles.

Not being rude or anything I promise, but a reef in which country? Can't say that I've seen anything similar to it diving here. I have however, only seen reef's in the Bahamas so that's all I have to go by.

Keeping busy.
When my son went off to college, the time I dedicated to reef-stuff decreased a bit, and was replaced by time spent on beer-related stuff.
who wudda thought !

Probably haven't fed my tank since the last time I was posting regularly. Have changed the water once or twice though ...

Haha! Well, glad to see you around and hope you plan to stick around for a bit.

 

[akunochi]

Not being rude or anything I promise, but a reef in which country? Can't say that I've seen anything similar to it diving here. I have however, only seen reef's in the Bahamas so that's all I have to go by.

Like a reef that would be found near NYC NY

 

[Scooterman]

Doesnt the Calcium level only really affect how fast the coral is going to grow. The higher calcium level the faster they are going to grow and some coral can grow too fast if calc levels are on the high side. A lower calc level, the coral could still be healthy and just grow a little slower?

No you need to understand what each coral needs in order to determine what or how much they need of anything including calcium.

Actually there was a study posted up in the Advanced forum that stated high calcium stunted growth. Take that for what you will.

Depends on may things, like what is considered high and which coral your talking about. You want levels most like in nature but people tend to push the limits for all sorts of reasons, right or wrong.

 

[Krish]

Like a reef that would be found near NYC NY

I'd never know!! Water would be too cold for me to get in and see for myself :lol:

 

[mojoreef]

You have to admit though his tank does look pretty natural to what you might see on a reef...minus the bottles

I cant rememebr what Paul used to call it? "East River Biotype"? I think, we will have to get him back over. I have seen reefs in the wild that looked like this but usually is a sign that the reef is on its way out of existance. On most reefs in the wild nutirents get locked up pretty quick so the tpe of algaes you see in hs tank would be picked clean be herds of tangs and such. With algae tha entrenche i woud be hard for corals to compete.

mojo

 

[Paul B]

Paul I thought it would be cool to let folks take a peek at your tank


412567paulb_tank1.jpg

Ha Ha, I love this thread and I published that particular picture many times as I am proud of the cycles my tank has gone through. That algae phase of the tank actually taught me something and I had algae blooms like that maybe 3 times.
My tank is and always has been an experiment, algae, cyano, diatoms, ich, tuberculosis, fungus, flatworms to me are a fantastic learning experience. If my tank never experienced these things I would be at the mercy of thousands of opinions on the internet how to deal with this stuff but I was fortunate to go through all of it with no help, only relying on my own intuition, experience and SCUBA diving years to over come it.
I can cure Pop eye in a few seconds and ich in a day but when I write about these seemingly un real remedies I get flamed so I don't.
That picture of the algae bloom was the healthiest my reef ever was. Fish were spawning and all the corals were growing well. Algae is not a disease, but a beneficial force in the ocean. If it were not for algae there would be no fish, no corals and no us. Adfter that picture was taken maybe 20 years ago I have learned how to have algae in my reef but only have it grow where I want it. A tank with no algae is not a healthy tank, far from it. Algae is a living thing and it grows inside our corals, it provides food and shelter for the bottom of the food chain and it grows on every reef in the sea. If it did not there would be no humugus heards of foot long tangs, no legions of urchins, no multitudes of slugs or lichens and no snails. But if you do any diving you will see that the majority of life on a reef are the animals I mentioned. Why are they there? Oh, I don't know, wait, Maybe it's the algae! Dive at night and see the reef covered in urchins, guess what they are eating?
Of course we don't want it growing on our corals, I don't either and I don't have any on my corals. My tank only has a short "healthy" growth on some rocks but the majority of it grows abundtly in my algae trough where I get the benefit of the algae without the hastle of having to have to clear it from the coral. Algae will not harm coral unless it blocks the light.
Instead of reactors, phosphate and nitrate removers, I rely on algae to do that for me for free. I have no reactors or any other means of artificially reducing algae or phosphate except what grows naturally in the tank. I also have no hospital or quarantine tank as I have not needed one for so long.
I also know I have no where the nicest looking tank on here, far from it. It is also probably not the healthiest or cleanest.
Most people would empty my tank and put in a DSB or goldfish. But it is a very old tank that has never crashed. I agree my methods seem wierd but as I said, this is an experiment and was never meant to be a thing of beauty to be admired for just beauty. I am an inventer and experimenter and that is the part of the hobby I love.
I am in awe and jealous of many of the gorgeous tanks you guys have, but for me I like my tank just the way it is
Have a great day and stay safe.
paul

This was not taken in my tank. I took this at a tide pool in the Long Island Sound. I put this tiny anemine in my reef along with this rock. This red turf algae is what sometimes grows on some rocks in my reef. It is natural and I introduced it from the sea. It has been in there for deacdes and only grows in some places. I like it as it is natural.

Sometimes it grows a lot like here. But usually it is only in a few places.

This is a recent picture, you can see a little short algae, thats about all there is on the rocks right now, but the algae trough is full of algae just like I designed it to be.

 

[mojoreef]

Most people would empty my tank and put in a DSB or goldfish. But it is a very old tank that has never crashed. I agree my methods seem wierd but as I said, this is an experiment and was never meant to be a thing of beauty to be admired for just beauty. I am an inventer and experimenter and that is the part of the hobby

I wouldnt say that that Paul. Everyone has different likes and dislikes and that shows in our tanks. SOme folks love the look of high energy reef and thus keep more acropora, some a more of lagoonal reef and keep more of the soft corals and so on and so on. The bottom line is that its your tank and you should make of it as you please, which you have. Its not a matter of what is the best its a matter of what you want out of it.

I agree my methods seem wierd but as I said, this is an experiment and was never meant to be a thing of beauty to be admired for just beauty. I am an inventer and experimenter and that is the part of the hobby I love.

I dont see anything really unhealthy about your tank Paul, it is exactly what you want it to be, no one has to impress anyone, just themselves. Most folks use algae to control their nutrient problems, its just the vast majority do it outside of the main tank in a refugium or something, you choose to do it inside.

On the algae on reefs in the wild, yes it is present on most reefs around the world and an important part of the ecosystem. But corals and algae like this are rivals and if it wasnt for the critters that control it, the reef coral system would fail. Because in that battle algae will always win.

On the picture, thats the ones you sent me about 5 years ago?? to post for you on RC I think?

Mike

 

[Paul B]

On the picture, thats the ones you sent me about 5 years ago?? to post for you on RC I think?

Mike that picture I sent you 5 years ago I think was taken with an old Nikon film camera. I have in my hand a "Marine Fish Monthly "magazine from December 1995 where my tank was featured on the last page and it was from a similar time.

Most folks use algae to control their nutrient problems, its just the vast majority do it outside of the main tank in a refugium or something, you choose to do it inside.

For the last 5 years or so I grow the majority of algae in a algae trough which is filled with hair and turf algae.
Lately I have been adding more SPS corals just for an experiment to see if they could thrive in there. In a few weeks one acropora has overgrown it's cement base and is attached to the bottle it is on and another one has re grown it's broken tips that I broke while installing it, a monti had trippled in size in about 10 months so it seems healthy. But as I have surmised after adding these SPS corals, some of the larger soft corals like the two 10" giant mushrooms have shrunken by more than half. I have noticed this many times when I try to mix the species. The many gorgonians are growing like weeds so they don't seem affected. I don't consider these shrinking mushrooms a malady or disease, it is also natural and happens when you mix certain corals from different oceans in a small tank. It is supposed to happen and as I am sure you know, is the corals way to defent itself from intruders.

 

[akunochi]

Man Paul,

Your tank has a different look but looks nice for the look you are going for. I think it is interesting to see your tank because it is a different look than the sterile tanks most of us keep. I appreciate you posting and letting me look at it again. I hope one day can cure ich in a day lol

 

[Paul B]

Akunochi, thanks, I appreciate that. And Mike old friend, I also appreciate you posting on here as well.
I love these discussions and am actually proud of my sometimes in-ept tank keeping adventures.
I like to keep thinking, keeps the cob webs out. But I really do love the look of some of you guys beautiful tanks.
I have dove in many oceans for many years and most tanks remind me of some of those places.
This was taken in the Caymans. Beautiful healthy rock, plenty of calcified sea weed also.

Recent picture of my tank, hardly any algae (unfortunately) Those gorgonians are not dying, they are just waking up in the morning.

 

[Krish]

Thanks for taking the time out Paul to offer some feedback here.

Like I mentioned, every tank is different and everyone is after a certain something. When I look at setting up a tank in my house, I think about what appeals to me visually. Paul is right and a lot of people don't understand algae and will think it is a plague. This is why you see people buy as one of their first fish, algae eaters and pleco's for their freshwater tanks, because they don't want to see any "green". Well, I don't like to see any green, or red, or brown or anything associated with algae (besides coralline algae ). Not that I think "algae" is bad, but I'm not setting up a reef tank with all of this expensive equipment to grow a lawn or a forrest. If I wanted to do that, I'd just start a garden outside. Much cheaper. When I set up a tank, I want it to look like something you would see come right out of a magazine! All clean and prestine!! That's what I shoot for so I do what I do. Paul does what he does because that makes Paul happy and that's what it is all about. What makes you happy.

Good for you Paul and thanks for your input here! You need to venture out into the open forum more often. Don't keep all that knowledge you have to yourself out of fear that you feel people will not accept your methods and bash you. We can discuss things in an orderly fashion here and there is no problem with people disagreeing on something. Once it is done in a civilized manner then it is all welcomed.

 

[Paul B]

Paul does what he does because that makes Paul happy

And do you know what else makes Paul happy? Finding a cool piece of live rock in a tide pool covered in amphipods and then throw it in my reef. Of course I just found this piece today and thats just what I did. :rockon:

I found it right here where I collect. I am going back tomorrow for grass shrimp, snails and amphipods.
Maybe some nice pieces of seaweeds also.

 

[menace78]

I Do regular water changes albeit not every week.
Usually about once a month and the reason I do it is:

Ammonia (NH4+) -> Nitrite(NO2-) -> Nitrate(NO3-)
That is the nitrogen cycle and unless a tank has a VERY good anaerobic bacteria population (via established and large DSB), or ALLOT of plant life/algae(not as efficient) to convert the NO3- to Nitrogen Gas(N2) the only surefire way to control NO3- is water changes.

That is why I do water changes.
I test only when I feel the need or when dosing.

If anyone else has a better Nitrate export method, please let me know. I would change water less frequent if I felt safe doing so

 

[Krish]

I Do regular water changes albeit not every week.
Usually about once a month and the reason I do it is:

Ammonia (NH4+) -> Nitrite(NO2-) -> Nitrate(NO3-)
That is the nitrogen cycle and unless a tank has a VERY good anaerobic bacteria population (via established and large DSB), or ALLOT of plant life/algae(not as efficient) to convert the NO3- to Nitrogen Gas(N2) the only surefire way to control NO3- is water changes.

That is why I do water changes.
I test only when I feel the need or when dosing.

If anyone else has a better Nitrate export method, please let me know. I would change water less frequent if I felt safe doing so

Not overstocking and over feeding a tank will help tons! I had a 75 gal with only 4 fish in the whole thing. Four small fish at that. I fed once a day and fed a little at a time rather than one large "dose" one time. So they'd get a small pinch of flakes first and after they ate that, then I'd toss in another small portion etc. This way, a lot less food is wasted or lost somewhere in the tank to shoot up nitrate and phosphate levels. Over stocking and over feeding a tank usually plays a major role in many tanks having excess nutrient problems. A deep sand bed is not needed either or the only thing that supports anaerobic bacteria. I didn't run sand beds so all of my anaerobic bacteria came from my liverock which did the job in conjuction with the other forms of filtration I used and tank maintenance. If you stay on top of just changing/cleaning filter pads, floss, sponges etc to every 3-5 days, then you would have less nitrate problems. These things, if left sitting in a tank for too long, the waste it traps will breakdown and rott degrading water quality shooting up nitrates levels etc so there are many little things you can do like these mentioned above that will enable you from having to do frequent/scheduled water changes if nitrates are the issue.

 

[Scooterman]

And do you know what else makes Paul happy? Finding a cool piece of live rock in a tide pool covered in amphipods and then throw it in my reef. Of course I just found this piece today and thats just what I did. :rockon:



I found it right here where I collect. I am going back tomorrow for grass shrimp, snails and amphipods.
Maybe some nice pieces of seaweeds also.

You remind me of a kid the night before Christmas, LOL

 

[jill]

Urchin pellets? I have a tuxedo in my nano and have never seen one. Do you think my emerald crab is eating them? How big are they?

I do water changes as a side-effect of siphoning detritus off the sandbed. About 5-10%, whenever I feel guilty.
(Urchin pellets are huge and dense!)

 

[Paul B]

You remind me of a kid the night before Christmas, LOL

I go to tide pools all the time and still get excited while lifting rocks to see what is under them, even though I know it is just Japanese Shore crabs, worms and amphipods.

 

[Frankie]

Got to page #2 and got dizzy LOL!

So I will skip the rest and just share my take on this topic.

Water changes, if done right, will not cause a build up in elements that are in solution. It just replaces them.

If I test for all the basic elements, Ca++, Mg., Alk, PH, etc. and remove 10% of the water volume, the remaining water will still test in at the same results.

So if my aquarium's ca++ comes in at 400 ppm. removing a portion of that water will not effect that number one iota. Replacing that water with 10% new water mixed and testing in at the same levels as the aquarium water will maintain that level. Same as the others.

My replacement water is always tested and dialed into the same parameters as the aquarium. I do not use it to bump up anything but salinity if needed. Ca++ depletion is dealt with by dosing. ( I use a reactor. I also use that reactor to solidify Dolomite to maintain Mg.)

So why do water changes? Export. LR builds up nitrates and phosphates. So doing water changes is the fastest way of removing these pollution's.

Every system is different in how the biological filtration is working. Some are not able to keep up with the built up pollution, causing the need for more water changes then others. Some are dialed in and maintain perfectly.

Some are in hyper mode, causing rapid removal of nutrients starving out the competition. (This can cause problems all in it's own, removing certain types of bacteria needed for filtration where you end up with extintions of strains)

Other factors play a roll also in the need for water changes. How good is your mechanical filtration?

 

[Krish]

How good is your mechanical filtration?

I never use sponges, filter pads, filter floss, polishing cartridges, power filters, canister filter etc. Infact, I don't even use sponges/prefilters on pumps. Just run them raw. Overflow/prefilters ran raw as well with just the strainer. Besides the old skimmer picking up something in the water, nothing else in my tanks removed particles. It is either skimmed out, used up by the corals, or manually removed (depending on which tank you are talking about that I had as they were all different) via weekly water changes. No clean up crew or fuge either and no nuicance algae grew so I didn't have a nutrient problem so I'd say things worked good for me not using any means of mechanical filtration other than skimming

 

[Scooterman]

When you do a WC do you do a scrub of the tank? I would have a filter sock in place at the sump return, direct path, maybe like a super fine one like 50 microns or smaller, In replacement of the regular 100/200 micron sock If you use one. I start by cleaning the glass/acrylic surfaces, while doing this I use a turkey baster and constantly blow off any surfaces I can, keeping particulate in suspension. I even blast the rock work when I can around corals and all the cup corals I keep them blasted daily so no particulate can settle for a long time. I siphon starting at the gravel/sand surface and blast it while sucking out particulate, I use a smaller siphon to slow down the process and try to put the end as far down below the tank as possible and clip it with another fine sock at the end, this way you get more suction power and the end stays in place while your knee deep into your tank. I always save some of the siphon to suck out the overflows while scrubbing the sides down to get as much gunk out as possible, swapping that with cleaning the sump every other time. I feel large volume cleaning spread apart has always done me right, weekly 10% doesn't give you enough time to clean everything thoroughly as one like in this process, so you need to intervene that from time to time with large ones. You can always re-use some of the water after passing it through a filter sock. The idea here is to EXPORT waste or whatever you Imported in the first place, there is no other magical way to remove it, than either by physical removal, mechanical like a skimmer or sock filters etc or some sort of greens like in a fuge but only when you harvest the crop and even then it will build up over time unless you have some sort of Export process over a certain amount of time. When people have a system running a long time then suddenly start having issues, it is usually narrowed down to a slow gradual build up that doesn't show up until it is too late. The number one rule is whatever you put in the tank you must physically remove it after it has been processed, either now or way later, you have to do it, no two systems are alike but this is the one constant. Depending on how your system is built and your husbandry will determine how or when that is necessary. If you can succumb to that then you fully understand what it takes to maintain a healthy glass box.
To ask the question if you feel water changes are necessary or not is almost a mute point, you don't necessary need to pollute your tank with new salt mix but you do need to export, so how else can it be done without designing some elaborate filtration system that is bound to one day fail at any cost!