When do you know that a coral become sick???

[Jose]

I bought a favia favus (I believe (??)) two weeks allot? Now there are areas in the coral that become white… I don’t know to describe it….

My water I think is OK
PH 8.3
Alk Normal
Ca 325-350
Salinity 1023
No Ammonia, Nitrite or Nitrate…
I will try to post a photo of my favia in the forum… First I need to learn to do that…I am following the Nikki’s instruction…
Take care guys and thank you very much in advance
Jose

 

[Jose]

Jose's Brain Coral

The pics are not good.. But you can see a white area (???)\
Thanks
Jose

 

[Jose]

Another sick Coral My Cup coral??? I have it for more than a year

I don't have any idea what to do????
It had allot of street in the last year....
Why is so F... difficult this hobby.....
Thanks
Jose

 

[steve-s]

What lights do you have, what are the tank dimensions and how often are you doing water changes? Is carbon being used and does the tank have any soft corals of anykind? Much more tank detail is needed along with maintenance routine.

Just on the information you posted thus far, the Ca is very low and could be part of the issue. You need to get that level upwards of 400-420 ppm. Depending on the saltmix you use, a boost in salinity towards natural reef levels will do wonders. I would encourage you to increase your salinity a tad as it will make chemistry maintenance easier. 1.023 is a little low for most inverts. 1.025 or better still, 35 ppt measured with a refractometer would be ideal. Once mixed to 35 ppt, check the chemistry of the new salt and see where it's at. If still shy of the correct levels, it can be tweeked to compensate. If using IO, it will mix to about 400 ppm Ca @ 35 ppt salinity so it won't need much. Just be sure any salinity increase is done over several days, not all at once.

You can use this calculator to guage what is neede per what volumes of water...
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

I would also suggest a more accurate alkalinity test. When problems arise or when maintaining chemistry for invertebrates a "range" is not nearly accurate enough. I would recommend Salifert or Seachem for that.

On that last pic, it looks like two different species of coral together, I can't tell. If so, coral proximity can/will cause great damage to neighbouring corals. They should be several inches (6"+) apart.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Jose]

Hi Steve

Hi Steve
Good morning

Tank: 55 gallons
Refugio: 20 gallons
Sump with Protein Skimmer: 15 gallons
Light: 2 – 175 watt M.H // 2 VHO 110 watt 36”
Test kit
PO4 – Nutrafin – 0.25-0.5 (2 days ago)
Ca – Seachem – 325-350 (2 days ago)
PH – Red Sea -- 8.3 (aprox..)(2 days ago)
Alk – Read Sea – (Test kit only indicate Low, Normal, High) - Normal (2 days ago)
Nitrite – Aquarium System 0
Nitrate – Aquarium System 0
Ammonia – Aquarium System 0

I put every day:
- B-Ionic ESV (Part A-B)
- Kalwaser – 2 tea spoon of lime mix in 1.5 Gls of RO water.
- I change water one per month. 20 to 15 Gallons… ( 15Gl water 2 days ago)

My Salt is Kent
I use Carbon

“ ….. Once mixed to 35 ppt, check the chemistry of the new salt and see where it's at. If still shy of the correct levels, it can be tweeked to compensate. If using IO, it will mix to about 400 ppm Ca @ 35 ppt salinity so it won't need much. Just be sure any salinity increase is done over several days, not all at once….”
SORRY Steve but I am confused with this paragraph… What is the mean “IO”, 35 ppt ….????

Corals
SPS Hydnophora, 2 Montiporas
LPS Favia, Frog Coral
Mushroom Coral (Probably 5 – 6 polyps..
Cup Coral
Botton Coral

Fish
False Percula Clown Fish
Watchman Goby
Canary Wrasser

Thanks

Jose

 

[Jose]

Hi

More Photos of my tank

 

[steve-s]

Light: 2 – 175 watt M.H // 2 VHO 110 watt 36”

How long have you had these lights and are the VHO daylight (kelvin?) or actinic? How far off the water are the lights raised?

If the bleaching is mainly the favia and turbinaria only, I would suspect they are getting too much light. Commonly these types of species do not need high light and are better placed on the substrate/shaded if using high output lights like MH. They will also not appreciate the intense flow the Hydnophora or Monti's would so be sure you account for that as well.

Test kit
Alk – Read Sea – (Test kit only indicate Low, Normal, High) - Normal (2 days ago)

Unfortunately "normal" doesn't help here. NSW values are anywhere between 1.5-3 mEq/l so it could be anywhere in that range. Ideally you want it upwards of the 3.0 mEq/l range for healthy pH and to prevent dramatic swings/drops at night. I would upgrade the test kit at the next opportunity.

I put every day:
- B-Ionic ESV (Part A-B)
- Kalwaser – 2 tea spoon of lime mix in 1.5 Gls of RO water.
- I change water one per month. 20 to 15 Gallons… ( 15Gl water 2 days ago)

How much (ml's) of the ESV? How are you preparing/dripping the kalkwasser?
I find it odd with so few scleractinians (size depending) that you would have that much of a demand. Something amiss there.

My Salt is Kent

I have to test mine, I use Kent as well but heard on a different board there may be something off with their alk levels as of late. The Ca should still be in the higher range. They no longer use IO to produce their salt which now comes in a bag liner within the pail. If you still have the old product (no liner), the alk should be 4.25 mEq/l with a Ca of about 435-440 ppm if mixed to 35 ppt.

At any rate, doing a few extra water changes over the next few weeks should restore your chemstry and aid in increasing the salinity. Just be sure you mix up the saltwater a day ahead and mix with a powerhead and heated to the same as the display tank. Try not to use newly mixed (within hours) saltwater. Be cautious and also test the chemistry of the newly prepared salt to be sure it is not part of the issue.

I use Carbon

Excellent, hopefully 24/7 changed weekly.

“ ….. Once mixed to 35 ppt, check the chemistry of the new salt and see where it's at. If still shy of the correct levels, it can be tweeked to compensate. If using IO, it will mix to about 400 ppm Ca @ 35 ppt salinity so it won't need much. Just be sure any salinity increase is done over several days, not all at once….”
SORRY Steve but I am confused with this paragraph… What is the mean “IO”, 35 ppt ….????

IO = Instant Ocean saltmix
35 ppt = a salinity measurement when using a refractometer. If you where using a hydrometer, you would report the value in SG or specific gravity. Given the notorious history for inaccuracey with hydrometers, you really should target a higher SG if so. 1.023 SG is not optimum, 1.025 SG si a better goal.

How 'bout my question on that last pic?

Sorry to "disect" your post, with the many points to discuss it makes it easier to follow.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Jose]

Thanks For your help

How long have you had these lights and are the VHO daylight (kelvin?) or actinic?
I changed my bulbs one moth ago.
2 Metal Halide Bulbs 175w / 6500K
2 VHO Fluorescent Tubes (Blue – True actinic phosphor peaks at 420nm) 36”/95w

How far off the water are the lights raised?
The distance between my favia and Frog Coral from the MHB is 18” --- Do you think is enough distance? Unfortunately I Don’t have very much space in the bottom of my tank.. I changed the favia location five minute ago. I put it near to the bottom.
I read that favia suffer from recession and jelly-type infections….So proper feeding and water flow limits these problems

If the bleaching is mainly the favia and turbinaria only, I would suspect they are getting too much light. Commonly these types of species do not need high light and are better placed on the substrate/shaded if using high output lights like MH. They will also not appreciate the intense flow the Hydnophora or Monti's would so be sure you account for that as well.


Unfortunately "normal" doesn't help here. NSW values are anywhere between 1.5-3 mEq/l so it could be anywhere in that range. Ideally you want it upwards of the 3.0 mEq/l range for healthy pH and to prevent dramatic swings/drops at night. I would upgrade the test kit at the next opportunity.

I normally buy my dry staffs in marine depot. Do you know others cheaper places via internet???
How much (ml's) of the ESV? probably 5 ml of each part A-B every day How are you preparing/dripping the kalkwasser?
I mix 1 tea spoon of Lime with 1.5 gallons of RO water in close conteiner. I am looking for easy way to to put Ca in my tank, probably a Kalwasser reactor... But it is very expensive and I don't understand how work a calcium reactor so far. Sometime I would like to follow the instruction of some expert the same of an automata
I find it odd with so few scleractinians (size depending) that you would have that much of a demand. Something amiss there.


I have to test mine, I use Kent as well but heard on a different board there may be something off with their alk levels as of late. The Ca should still be in the higher range. They no longer use IO to produce their salt which now comes in a bag liner within the pail. If you still have the old product (no liner), the alk should be 4.25 mEq/l with a Ca of about 435-440 ppm if mixed to 35 ppt.

At any rate, doing a few extra water changes over the next few weeks should restore your chemstry and aid in increasing the salinity. Just be sure you mix up the saltwater a day ahead and mix with a powerhead and heated to the same as the display tank. Try not to use newly mixed (within hours) saltwater. Be cautious and also test the chemistry of the newly prepared salt to be sure it is not part of the issue.


Excellent, hopefully 24/7 changed weekly.

IO = Instant Ocean saltmix
35 ppt = a salinity measurement when using a refractometer. If you where using a hydrometer, you would report the value in SG or specific gravity. Given the notorious history for inaccuracey with hydrometers, you really should target a higher SG if so. 1.023 SG is not optimum, 1.025 SG si a better goal.

How 'bout my question on that last pic?

Sorry to "disect" your post, with the many points to discuss it makes it easier to follow.

Cheers
Steve

By the way… I don’t know what to do with the dangerous relationship between my clown fish and my frog coral …. I try to remove my clown fish to the Refugio but it is difficult and I don’t want to stress the hole tank…. Obviously I don’t see very nice future for my frog coral… Any advice about it…??? I don't want to lost my Frog coral

 

[steve-s]

The only time brown jelly disease becomes an issue is where the tank water "cleanliness" is poor. High nitrate combined with any kind of injury can usually spur it on quite quickly. If you have good husbandry practices and are mindful of water quality it becomes much less a risk, even if the coral becomes injured. Water flow and feeding are indeed quite important but will not prevent it much, just slow it down.

I'm fairly sure it's a combination of placement and/or water chemistry though. I would first start off with fixing the chemistry via increased water changes. Mix the new salt to a salinity of 35 ppt, test the new salt for chemistry levels so alk is in the 3.0 mEq/l range and Ca is around 410-420 ppm. Do a few 20% water changes 2ish times a week until the chem in the main tank match's. This will also help if anything amiss with other chem levels/polutants in the tank. You can use chemical additives directly in the main but while you are learning the relationship and understanding of each, this will be much easier on you than accidentally overdosing the main.

Once accomplished, do not dose anything in the interim to the tank so once the chem in the main is up to par you can track the rate of depletion. Test the alk and Ca every second day for a week without dosing or water changes. This will tell you approximately each week what the tank uses up and give you a better idea of what needs to be added, when and how much. I would also suggest testing pH in the AM and late PM to guage it's health. Make sure you note the day of the test and the result for each. Start a new post once you have at least four sets of numbers and the fine folks here will be able to suggest a better scheme at maintaining your chemistry.

As far as the lights are concerned, I don't really see them as being an issue @ 18" distance but I also like to err on the side of caution. If you can arrange an area on the substrate where these corals can be placed I think they will be better off. At the very least be sure none of the fleshy sides of the coral are touching rock as this can often lead to irritation. Once the corals have been relocated, avoid the urge to keep moving them, it will only stress them further and add to the problem.

Once all these changes have been made it will take a few weeks before you see any marked improvement so be patient and don't forget to feed them 1-2x a week with small meaty foods like mysis, blender mush or frozen cylop eeze.

As far as you test kits, I can't offer any help on price effective but these (alk & Ca) are the ones you want...
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_test_kits_salifert.asp?CartId=
Cheers
Steve

 

[Jose]

Thanks Steve
Take Care
Jose

 

[steve-s]

I have to test mine, I use Kent as well but heard on a different board there may be something off with their alk levels as of late. The Ca should still be in the higher range. They no longer use IO to produce their salt which now comes in a bag liner within the pail. If you still have the old product (no liner), the alk should be 4.25 mEq/l with a Ca of about 435-440 ppm if mixed to 35 ppt.

Just wanted to update this part of the thread. Please treat this as information only, I am still a big propenent of working with a decent salt as long as you know it's limitation...

Today being water change day and having the newly packaged (with bag liner) Kent salt, I tested the major component levels to see where it all stood. Quite surprising actually.

15 gal water volume, heated to 79° @ 35 ppt (refractometer) ixed uncvered for about 3 days.

Alkalinity 1.67 mEq/l
Ca 450 ppm
Mg 1150 ppm
pH 8.3 (ish)

Cheers
Steve

 

[Anthony Calfo]

very well said Steve! Outstanding info. I agree too. I think this tank likely has way too much light. Unless the tank is specifically designed for keeping high light corals, the majority of species likely to be kept (like the LPS mentioned here... brown Turbinaria and Favia) only need around 250-300 watts. Anything more will be a stress in my opinion.

The water change schedule is also too light here. 20% weekly is much better and especially needed if chemical filtration is not well attended too.

Th elast caveat I would mention is Calcium. I do not agree that it need to be so high at least yet. For struggling aquarists, asking ythem to increase Ca over 425ppm is not necessary or helpful (usually pushes them to a see-saw battle with ALK). And since thsi is not a heavy growth sps tank... this display needs little calcium for LPS and the like. On that point, the system "cares" little whether is draws 10ppm of Ca daily off f 350 ppm or 425ppm. The most important thing is stability by far.

kindly, Anth-

 

[Jose]

Thanks guys for your advices
Take care
Jose

 

[Jose]

Hi Steve
Thanks for all of your advices. I didn’t follow them so far because I was waiting for a couple of things that I ordered in MarineDepot.

I have received today a PH monitor, Refractometer and a couple of test kits. I have tested my water one hour ago several times with estranger results.

Salinity 1026
Ph- 8.25 (after calibrate my PH monitor)
Alk- 9.6 dKH or 3.43 meg/l (Salifer Test kit)
Ca- 250 ppm (Seachem test)

I don’t understand the results. I believe that when the alkalinity is high the PH is high.
I read several manual about the relation between PH, Alk and Ca and I am still confused.
On the other hand my aquarium look very heathy and nice. The only coral that has some recession is my favia…

I think I am dripping so much kalwasser.
Take care
Jose

 

[steve-s]

Amazing what clarity quality will bring

The only thing "out of whack" so to speak is the Ca. As Anthony pointed out above, Ca is most likely not the issue. I doubt the problem is the kalkwasser drip given your current alk levels. As far as alk/pH concerns, high alk does not automatically mean a high pH although it (alkalinity) does play a large role in pH stability.

What time of day was the pH tested and how did you calibrate the pH monitor?

I would still proceed with checking your freshly mixed (after 12ish hrs of aeration/mixing) SW's chemistry, tweeking where necessary and doing a few good sized water changes to get things back into balance. Once balanced, your kalk usage should keep it in line. As I indicated earlier though it would be best to track the tank chemical (alk/Ca) depletion and determine a steady daily balance that will keep it in line rather than constant corrections.

As far as the recession, move the coral lower in the tank away from other corals abbrasive edges (substrate optimally) and be sure it does not get any direct/sustained water flow.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

On the chemistry front, not sure if these will help or confuse but give them a read...

Reef Aquarium Water Parameters
Alkalinity
Calcium
The Relationship Between Alkalinity and pH

Cheers
Steve

 

[Jose]

I calibrated the PH monitor with American Marine Pinpoint pH Calibration Fluid #7 and with American Marine Pinpoint pH Calibration Fluid # 10.

The PH is:
At night between 12:00 pm to 7:00 am – 8.13 – 8.17
In the morning between 7:00 am to 1:00 am is 8.20 – 8.25 (I have a lot of natural light in the morning)
With the lights between 1:00 am to 12:00 pm is 8.25 – 8.27

Also the light of the Refugium is permanently turn on.
Thanks
Jose

 

[steve-s]

Calibration looks fine

Your pH is not really bad but would be healthier in the 8.3 range nightly and 8.5 during the day. I would not suggest anything drastic to change this but you may want to consider reverse lighting the refugium instead so it's on at night and off in the day. It can often make a large difference in pH stability. Algae produce O2 through photosynthesys and CO2 when in the dark just like houseplants. Also look at how the tank is enclosed if at all and freeing up open areas to allow the tank/tank room more access to fresh air. GPH and how the water actually circulates can also be a large contributor. Proper surface aggitation along will flow that wells up from the bottom area's of the tank helping to push out CO2.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Jose]

Thanks guy
Jose

 

[Anthony Calfo]

agreed... nothing looks severely out of whack at all here. The pH is a little bit low/flat... but not uncommon or reason to be concerned.

With regular water changes and reasonably good husbandry (not overstocking or overfeeding) this chemistry will likely be satisfactory.

No worries