ZEOvit. Lets talk

[mojoreef]

Ooopss thanks for the fix boom


Mike

 

[invincible569]

mojo, thats right. Light vs Dark. Now, the color of a coral CAN change by the QUALITY of light (light spectrum).

Before ZEOvit, i had some colors on SOME corals. And it was pretty frustrating especially when they would darken up. I have always had great husbandry since the beginning of my tank setup. I was never a believer of coralline encrustation, always did my weekly water changes, etc. In other words, I was always scrubbing! Here is a pic of a humilis that I bought from an LFS a while back. I set it in my tank for about a yr and the color remained dark. I was pretty upset and hoped it would color up one day. Well, I gave up and gave this piece away. But then I noticed the encrusted part remained on the rock. Since then, it has grown into what you see below. I would of never of thought this coral would look so beautiful!

2003

Nov 2004

Today (2005)

 

[invincible569]

Here it is with a more distant shot to show you a better perspective:

 

[mojoreef]

Nice color for sure Edward!! humilis can be a bear to color up, they like lots of light. I have three in my tank all about the same height to the bulb but three different colors. Here is a pic of one that is close in color to yours.

Mike

 

[wrightme43]

Still reading and learning. Please continue, dont think your wasting your time. I am very interested just way over my head. Thanks again.

 

[invincible569]

Mike, looks like you have a Monticulosa there.

 

[G.Alexander]

Ahh thats another one that is kind of up in the air too. Their have been studies on the production of Amino acids by corals and for the most part it is understood that corals can produce/synthesize at least 16 of the 20 protein amino acids, eight of which are essential. But once again the ammount being produced is significantly less then required by the coral to satisfy its energy budjet.

Mike, I totally agree but who is telling us that the corals are not able to change their ratios & contingents in their different nourishment possibilities. Maybe they only use, what they can produce, without loosing to much energy to synthesize the amino acids. Supposed, absorbing them from the water column saves a lot of energy instead of the self production, which could change the ratio of the amino acid “nourishment” from the ratio of a coral which lives in the ocean.[/QUOTE]

Ok I can buy that, if different strains were provided it could enhance the cycling.

With the product ZeoBac it is the case for sure. Two well know and respected people have observed the product, both with same result. Different bacteria strains.

Interesting. I guess we could assume this is a soluable form of nutrient that has the ability to be directly absorbed by the corals also.

The ZeoFood contains beside the carbon source amino acids & vitamins which are useful for the corals. The product ZeoStart is a carbon source only and if you dose the amino acids plus the ZeoStart in a tank you will get similar results as doing ZeoFood. ZeoStart was not in the row of the basics when the product was first offered.

Hmm any idea what would cause the air bubbles?? I would assume fixing of nitrogen? maybe co2 respiration??

Really not. There are different possibilities but I expect this has something to do with a bio film and is bacteria based, but this is only a adoption. I have seen these bubbles also in tanks they do not run the system, which makes me believe this has no direct connection to the ingredients of the products. Whoever I only noticed it in nutrient poor tanks.

I think taking the approach of dosing as you notice changes in the corals look and health would be an absolute rather then sticking to a general set of dosing schedules

IMO by a strict dosage without observing the needs of the corals you will never get those excellent results. I see the guide more in the direction as a start up guide in the different phases to give the users the right feeling. This is why the guide also describes the signs of overdose.

Last but not least a picture of mine blue humilis which is placed relative dark in the tank:

Really a nice thread, thanks

G.Alexander

 

[mojoreef]

Mike, I totally agree but who is telling us that the corals are not able to change their ratios & contingents in their different nourishment possibilities

Yes it is well documented that corals can make these kinds of changes and do on a regular basis in the wild. You can find the exact same species of sps on virtualy every level of the reef, and with those level changes come drastic enviromental changes and thus food sources or lack of them. Just the mere fact that we can take a coral off the reef and grow them in ouor tanks for decades is a testiment to that. Where I was going with my post thier was the elimination/reduction of two main food sources while increasing just one is a process that should be done very slowly and monitored very well. I dont know to much about the history of the zeovit users but I would assume that those that have had problems have had it in this area.

The ZeoFood contains beside the carbon source amino acids & vitamins which are useful for the corals.

I would say that the bacteria are the mian driving force behind the zeovit system. I believe the corals might benefit slightly by digesting bacteria that have been enriched by these products, but I am more starting to lean towards the fact these products go mainly as a carbon/respiration soure for the bacteria. Now when you take into account that corals take advantage of bacteria direct digestion through slime netting, AA's and such alsobeing produced with in the gut of the coral from bacteria setting up shop thier and so on, it would seem to be a much firmer leg to stand on to say that the re-enforcement of bacterial populations, the differing strains, the carbon soure food for them and so on enhances the one true nutrition system they have left from using the zeovit system.

There are different possibilities but I expect this has something to do with a bio film and is bacteria based

Yea I would say the biofilm is stopping the migration of either co2 or nitrogen gas from excaping to the water column, no biggie really.

Nice coral Alexander. Hey another question, do you notice alot of sliming on your corals?? not su much the defensive sliming but a heavy coat of slime over the tissue??

MIke

 

[Boomer]

Mojo

Those are some nice ideas/theories I agree and I also think the bact's are the real driving force but without their Zeo "food" the process pretty much slows down. I believe somewhere, Alexander in one of those 800 + post, mentioned the cleaning of the zeo's. This also makes sense, as the biofilms may just get to large and inhibit bacterial activity and such slims/biofilms may not be as nutrient enriched, which would have a effect on the corals.

 

[mojoreef]

Mike, looks like you have a Monticulosa there.

Your right Edward, thats why I usually stick to colored fuzzy sticks, cant loose that way.

Boomer

Those are some nice ideas/theories

Just throwing crap against the wall and seeing what sticks

I also think the bact's are the real driving force but without their Zeo "food" the process pretty much slows down

Yea you have to support that artifical population level or they will eventually go back to static. The biofilm/mulm/detritus is for sure a big factor, with the dosing of food, bacteria and so on one could imagine the nutritional value if it is aloud to become available. I heard somewhere that folks have their skimmer down line of the reactor, I dont know if I would do that, I would rather give the coral a shot at it first.

Its the old blind squirrel theory. Increase the amount of nuts and he is bound to find one,

Mike

 

[NaH2O]

So, it makes sense on the bacterial end of the system and theories behind how and why the corals react the way they do, but how important is the zeolite with regards to the bacteria? Maybe this is still a question that can't be answered, but it seems like you could use different media to grow the bacteria, then shake it up to release it, and get a similar effect?

 

[Boomer]

Mojo

Its the old blind squirrel theory. Increase the amount of nuts and he is bound to find one

No, it is the theory that if you give an aquarium keeper a lake with one fish in it, he will find away to pollute the lake. I suppose 52 bomb raids of flake food

Nikki

It may be the bact's are initial attracted to the zeo as it has picked up ammonia, something they want. There have been a number of studies on it and abstracts on our chem forum that they are indeed attracted to zeo's because it has picked up ammonia. "Nitrate sponges" are the same kind of zeolite and we know what they do but we never fed them or cleaned them. Ionic exchange is another issue. You are attracted to a restaurant, you can smell the food but can not get in, as the doors are looked but you stay there anyway, maybe the doors will open.

If the diffusion rate is high enough, say ammonia collecting on the surface of the zeolite, it may be able to diffuse , so they say right through bacteria to a ionic exchange site. The odd thing here one might think is that tests in seawater have shown that carbon (GAC) will pick up more ammonia than a zeolite. Me, I just think that maybe these bact's just like the surface of zeolites to grow on. I have never seen nitrates drop with GAC and I have used dump truck loads of the stuff but have with zeolites


On another note nobody has mentioned in any of these ZEOvit threads or even zeolite threads, is there is ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4+). The ratio is pH dependant and NH3 which has no charge, so there can be no ionic exchange. As the pH drops the NH3 picks up a H + at lower pH and it is converted tot NH+4. At pH of 8.3, temp 26 C and 1 ppm TAN (Total Ammonia Nitrogen)

NH3 = .1 ppm

NH+4 = .9 ppm

But that is not really much of a big deal though. So there is still plenty of NH+4. At a pH of 9 it is .4 NH3 to .6 NH+4

 

[MikeS]

The ZeoFood contains beside the carbon source amino acids & vitamins which are useful for the corals.

I would say that the bacteria are the mian driving force behind the zeovit system. I believe the corals might benefit slightly by digesting bacteria that have been enriched by these products, but I am more starting to lean towards the fact these products go mainly as a carbon/respiration soure for the bacteria.

MIke

Ok then ...back to my question earlier in the thread...if the additives are primarily adding a carbon source for the bacteria....then, (aside for the fact that you are also actively adding a bacteria strain to the tank), how exactly does this fundamentaly differ from adding something like Vodka?

I'd like to know a bit more about the bacteria. What condtion does it arrive in? Is it dormant? Do you have any idea what kind of survival rate you get out of it?

No, it is the theory that if you give an aquarium keeper a lake with one fish in it, he will find away to pollute the lake. I suppose 52 bomb raids of flake food

I'm with you Boomer.... :lol:

Alex....you have a very beautiful tank, thanks for sharing your photos and experiences with us, welcome to Reef Frontiers....

MikeS

 

[G.Alexander]

Where I was going with my post thier was the elimination/reduction of two main food sources while increasing just one is a process that should be done very slowly and monitored very well.

I know what you mean Mike. However in a zeo driven tank we have the following “food sources” for corals:

Light, which is necessary to keep the zoox alive they nourish to coral with amino- and fatty acids.

Amino Acids which are produced from the coral & provided by the addition to the water.

Nutrients, low, but always present as we can say this with the unprofessional hobby test we use to nourish the zoox which are further present but not in the high concentration we know from nutrient wasted tanks. IMO a similar concentration like corals they grew in the upper reef environments.

Bacteriaplancton, which is provided from the bio film hosted at the zeolite and peeled of by cleaning the material daily, also from everywhere in the tank when it peeled of by the current if it becomes to thick.

What we now do not have is plankton. To round the system Thomas Pohl is also working on such a food source which contains these “substances”.

Nice coral Alexander. Hey another question, do you notice alot of sliming on your corals?? not su much the defensive sliming but a heavy coat of slime over the tissue??

Mike, I think the slime of a coral could be a indicator for its health. Many corals loose this slime layer over the time. I do not know by which leak it is caused. Fresh imported corals which where not kept to long in the exporter station always show this slime. I would not say my corals are extremely slimy, but I have noticed over the time and the enhancement of the system corals who do not showed the slime started to produce it. You can only notice it by tanking the coral out of the water. However, until now, not al genius of coral show this change at the moment but many do which IMO is a good thing. Do you have any further information how and for which benefit the slime is produced ? It would interest my personal.

Those are some nice ideas/theories I agree and I also think the bact's are the real driving force but without their Zeo "food" the process pretty much slows down.

Boomer, that is what I also expect. I also think if the bio film becomes “to old”, its possibility to convert nutrients slows down. Peeling it of daily will always provide a relative “fresh” bio film with its possibility to convert nutrients.

Yea I heard somewhere that folks have their skimmer down line of the reactor, I dont know if I would do that, I would rather give the coral a shot at it first.

My personal opinion is the zeolite reactor water outlet should be attached directly to the tank. This has nothing to do with the nutrient reduction, just to provide the mulm and peeled of bio film to the corals.

So, it makes sense on the bacterial end of the system and theories behind how and why the corals react the way they do, but how important is the zeolite with regards to the bacteria? Maybe this is still a question that can't be answered, but it seems like you could use different media to grow the bacteria, then shake it up to release it, and get a similar effect?

Nikki, I do not know which special roll the zeolite plays with the system. Maybe it is the structure of the surface of the material which provides a optimal place to host the bacteria beside some other things ? To show the zeolites play a important roll with the system, alternative material where tested, but the results where not the same in the corals & nutrient concentration. I also can tell adding for example only the zeolite without the bacteria and food would not show the same effect. Same with adding bacteria and food without zeolite.

Ok then...back to my question earlier in the thread...if the additives are primarily adding a carbon source for the bacteria....then, (aside for the fact that you are also actively adding a bacteria strain to the tank), how exactly does this fundamentaly differ from adding something like Vodka?

MikeS, I never gave the Vodka addition a try. With the vodka as a food source IMO you only boost the growth of the already present bacteria strains which does not provide a perfect bacteria chain. However, finding a carbon source is not a problem, but to find a carbon source with which the corals, especially SPS can deal with. Not sure if this is possible with vodka.

I'd like to know a bit more about the bacteria. What condtion does it arrive in? Is it dormant? Do you have any idea what kind of survival rate you get out of it?

The bacteria are shipped in a liquid bottle, which as a shelf live of 6 month unopened and 3 month if the bottle is opened when stored in the fridge. This is the only product in the row which should be stored chilled. This is the minimum shelf live and if the bacteria become corrupt, they quick begin to smell bad. I am not invited in the production of this product but Thomas Pohl told in a thread of another forum the bacteria are encapsulated until they are added to the water.

Alex....you have a very beautiful tank, thanks for sharing your photos and experiences with us, welcome to Reef Frontiers....

Thanks for your welcome.

G.Alexander

 

[Forestal]

I have been rereading a lot of the posts....I find it very interesting, and i am learning alot of coral biology

G.Alexander...welcome and thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. :thumbs:

 

[NaH2O]

Nikki, I do not know which special roll the zeolite plays with the system. Maybe it is the structure of the surface of the material which provides a optimal place to host the bacteria beside some other things ? To show the zeolites play a important roll with the system, alternative material where tested, but the results where not the same in the corals & nutrient concentration. I also can tell adding for example only the zeolite without the bacteria and food would not show the same effect. Same with adding bacteria and food without zeolite.

Thanks for addressing this for me. I'm glad to read someone already tested it on a different material to see what the effects would be.

 

[wrightme43]

Yes G. Alexander. Thank you very much and welcome. I am becoming more interested in this system. Here is a question I have. Say I have to go out of town for a week. As it stands today, I can have my brother come by and empty skimmer cup, and add makeup water. What happens if my corals are (Hooked on ZEO. LOL) How will they handle that situation in your opinion? Also, do you all have the ZEOVIT circulation pump on a timer so it goes on at certain times of the day like a kalkreactor? Also how easy was it for you to get a feel for how much of each product to add and when? I know most of this is subjective, I am interested in you feedback and experince, I care more about how to make it work, than why it works.
Thanks in advance. Steve

 

[Boomer]

Alexander

I also think if the bio film becomes “to old”, its possibility to convert nutrients slows down. Peeling it of daily will always provide a relative “fresh” bio film with its possibility to convert nutrients.

Yes, that is what I meant buy my post more or less. You can see this even in nitro-bio-filters, where the biofilm gets so large you can almost shovel the stuff out. There would also be a drop in population density. It will also impede O2, water flow and can cause channeling, all not good for maximum efficiency for bacter's.

 

[TDEVIL]

i have been kinda following these zeo threads, and i must say this is the one i like, althou i have a headack now, lol, as i went crosseyed on a few posts

after reading everything (which i will do again) i also will check out zeo.com

in one of Scott's posts he said that a few of his costomers ran out of zeo (cant remember which) and all was fine, do all of the zeo users have the same experience?

i also read that kalk need not be used, a 2 part should be (?) is there a reason for this. it is a long road ahead before the wife will let me get a calcium reactor, maybe if i try this system it might help, lol

i am very intersesed, this is a good thread

Jay

 

[G.Alexander]

Here is a question I have. Say I have to go out of town for a week. As it stands today, I can have my brother come by and empty skimmer cup, and add makeup water. What happens if my corals are (Hooked on ZEO. LOL) How will they handle that situation in your opinion? Also, do you all have the ZEOVIT circulation pump on a timer so it goes on at certain times of the day like a kalkreactor? Also how easy was it for you to get a feel for how much of each product to add and when? I know most of this is subjective, I am interested in you feedback and experince, I care more about how to make it work, than why it works.

Steve, as it is a bacteria driven system nothing “special” will happen if you stop the dosage for some time. I often had this situation which caused no problems. Taking a view on the environment, I expect over the time some of the bacteria strains will be displaced by more dominant which could cause a slow nutrient rise. If the tank is new to the system this will happen faster, if the tank is running stabile with the system for a longer period, this will happen very slow. I would not recommend to start the system if you plan to leave in the next weeks for a longer period, especially in the beginning, the biology in the tank has first to grow. However, I left for three weeks without any dosage and coming back the tank looked like before, just a little bit darker coral tissue, which was back to normal after going on with to normal dosage.

Another question which goes in the same direction is how can I save stop the usage of the system. To make it save and slow for the corals I would recommend to slow decrease all the components over a period of 4 weeks.

Running the zeolite filter on a timere is a good thing, especially at the beginning. You only have to take care to not expose the stones to the air while the pump is switched off. Most people use a standard time with a 3 hour on, 3 hour off, 3 hour on … interval. This technique is used to bring down the nutrients more effective in the beginning. It seems the bacteria convert much more PO4 in the time when the environment changes from aerobic to anaerobic and back. If the tank runs stabile with poor nutrients, this is not further necessary.

Most of the zeo users use a CaCO2 reactor filled with coral gravel & Mg granulate to provide stabile values in Ca, Mg and KH. IMO this also provides the possibility to not add to much "extra" elements like chloride for example which will shift the “ionic” balance over the time & add trace elements, as the used chemicals are not 100 % pure. Please remember, the lower the nutrients are, the less trace elements are necessary to show a darker tissue reaction in the coral tissue. IMO Kalkwasser has two handicaps. It binds PO4 which is accumulated mostly on the rocks and the sand. Under different conditions it is possible for the PO4 to leach back in the water column. Over the time you build up a PO4 pool which can make it hard once to bring down the PO4 concentration in the system. It often can be observed such tanks do not show any PO4 reading in the water column, but algae growing as wild on the rocks. They are able to release the bound PO4. Another thing is you most add Kalkwasser once a day which does not provide the continuous addition of Ca & KH, so parameter swings are present, but this all has noting to do with any chemical reaction to one of the zeo products. Just a general coral care advise.

Getting a 100 % feeling for the addition depends to each person. After one has understood the interaction of the products and knowing the under- / overdosing sings, also following the instructions, this can be learned relative quick if you have some basic knowledge in SPS. To support and help the people at the beginning we have opened a forum which IMO is very helpful for the people. This forum was not created as a “marketing” instrument, all the moderators just like to help the people and offer support. However, if you get the feeling you will continuous lower the dosage when your tank is “passing” the different phases. Also after 5 years on the system I furthermore do not follow a strict drop by drop dosage.

…in one of Scott's posts he said that a few of his costomers ran out of zeo (cant remember which) and all was fine, do all of the zeo users have the same experience?

i also read that kalk need not be used, a 2 part should be (?) is there a reason for this. it is a long road ahead before the wife will let me get a calcium reactor, maybe if i try this system it might help, lol

Jay, please take a look at my above post.

G.Alexander