ZEOvit. Lets talk

[Boomer]

Time to fire this thread back up. Alex will be here to post some type of test results and answer any questions about the ZEOvit system. He does not sell this stuff at all, just a reefer and is IMHO the knowledgeable one I know on it.

 

[Jeremy B.]

Hi Boomer,

I may have missed one the posts or skipped over it, but what exactly is Alex testing?

Thanks!

 

[Boomer]

No you missed nothing. I mentined in another post or maybe it was a PM to Mojo that Alex was running some test. I assume on his system and he would post here if I asked after he was finished. I do not know what the tests were on, only he would have some kind of results. I'm sure they were tests he ran on his ZEOvit system

 

[G.Alexander]

Hi everyone. My name is Alexander. After Boomer has asked me to post some personal experiences with the system, I decided to register on RF.

I use the system on my present tank since Sep. 2001. The tank was started from the scratch with fresh live rock, a powerful skimmer & “standard” equipment. The system holds around 320 US gallons. I keep 95 % SPS and 5 % LPS, also some tridacna clams in the tank. A lot of the corals grew out from fragments so these corals are in the tank since the beginning. I have started stocking the tank two weeks after filling it up.

I am very pleased with the results, however there where a lot of things I had to learn. The corals helped me here with their respond.

One of the most important things I have learned with such a nutrient poor system is to keep the “standard” parameters as stabile as possible. So if the tank has build up its biology, the system is very consistent and stabile in SPS growth and coloration.

Once one has entered the nutrient poor level, it is necessary to dose the products depending to the look of the corals & the overdosing signs like explained in the dosing guide. If one has understood which impact each product has to the look of the corals, IMO it is not a problem to find the adequate dosage.

The products are very high concentrated, so the really last a lot of time which means you have to think in drops with the dosage not in ml.

I am neither a chemist nor a biologist so I do not prefer to turn the discussion to deep in these processes of the system.

As Boomer said, I have no commercial background and run the tank for my own pleasure.

G.Alexander

 

[scottw]

will say Alex may be joining us.

His name is Alexander, not sure who Alex is

 

[invincible569]

His name is Alexander, not sure who Alex is

oh.. thanks Evo.

 

[scottw]

oh.. thanks Evo.

NP Vinc

 

[mojoreef]

Thanks for sharing your experences Alexander. You put emphasis on keeping normal tank parameter as stable as possible. Have you noticed that these corals are now a little more finicky when it comes to parameter swings??


Mike

 

[G.Alexander]

Mike, I would answer your question with yes, if we talk about corals which are generally known as delicate. I would call this more a general advise with all the methods in SPS keeping.

G.Alexander

 

[Jeremy B.]

G. Alexander, thank you for your input. From what I am gathering by what you mentioned the dosage of the different additives is more relative to you reading your corals, rather than a certain amount on a given day or set time?

 

[mojoreef]

In taking a general overlook at the zeovit system one can come away with at least the assumsion that the system really digs deep into the general metabolism of the corals. As in you are greatly reducing a mojor source of food for the corals (direct absorbsion through tissue), also couple that with a big reduction in Zoox population (another big source of nutrition) and the replacing it with supplimental feedings would leed one to assume a little bit more of a fine line on what the coral can handle in the way of an outside problems (parameter swings).

Alexander it seems like starting the tank under this systems seems to be themuch perfered method? I guess that way you dont have to bring the corals through what could be a scary period of transistion. Do you use all the additives zeo has to offer? or do you use a selected amount? Can you let us know the visual signs you see with each type of additive you use??


thanks buddy


Mike

 

[Boomer]

I know his name but it is to long ,so Alex. Even my name gets shortened up to Boomy or Boom

Hi Alex, thanks for coming

 

[Boomer]

Scott, who is Vinc, his name is invincible569

 

[G.Alexander]

Jeremy, this is exactly what I have tried to say. Different tanks need different dosages, because each one has its own biology. The advices which are provided with the guide are a good startup dosage to give the people the feeling for the system. However, the dosage has to be adjusted over the time to the needs of each tank. I would rate the guide more in the direction of helping the people to identificate a over- or underdose of the different products with a recommendation how to dose in the different phases.

G.Alexander

 

[G.Alexander]

Mike, there is really not a lot of research done what exactly corals can use as a food source beside nutrients. We know for example, corals are able to produce different amino acids, also fatty acids beside some others which are needed for their metabolism. It becomes generally adopted that these substances are produced by the corals which might be correct. But allow me a question, do you know any scientific paper which provides the information that these substances can also be taken from the water column by the corals ? Probably not. Observing the corals in my tank, I can tell, they do.

This is just a example for all the complex mechanisms take place in the little world of our tanks which are still not explained but observed.

The corals kept in a zeo system also get additional food in the form of bacteria, which is already know to nourish corals in the natural coral reefs. The daily mixing of the material peels off the bio film from the stones and boosts it through the water column. I believe this is a benefit for the corals, because I have noticed a long time ago, corals get lighter and lighter if this is not done. This makes me believe there is a leak of nourishment to them. This was observed long before I have dosed amino acids or any other additional food. Just the basics (zeolite, bacteria, food & carbon). After a filter was constructed which provides the possibility to mix up the material, the situation has changed. Peeling of the bio film was the intension since the beginning. It was tried to do with a high, strong water flow through the material, before the filter was constructed, but this does not worked as good as the stones are driven now.

I would not tell the system works better at a fresh started tank. I believe this is all up to the present nutrient accumulation at the start point. I have seen “old” tanks running the system and after a longer period I could not tell you if these tanks run zeo since their beginning. I would say the higher the nutrient accumulation in a tank is, the more time it will take to see a effect, but the effect will come, it is just a question of time. I would never try to force this by a massive over dosage, just patience and adequate husbandry.

I use the basics for nutrient reduction:

ZeoVit (zeolite)
ZeoBac (bacteria)
ZeoFood (food source for bacteria and corals)
ZeoStart (food source for bacteria)
Carbon

Also the additional products to “fine tune” the coloration & nourish the corals:

Amino Acids
Macro elements
Iron
Iodine

But all of them in a controlled way with a very low quantity, also some not constant, just if necessary to get all out of the system.

After adding a much more powerful skimmer in the beginning of the year, with the effect of very light tissue, weaker coloration & growth, I decided to provide some extra food for the corals. How the tank is up now shows me this was a step in the right direction.

Please consider my tank is running since 5 years with the system & the nutrient export & elimination is set up since years to the optimum.

It is really a lot of writhing to describe all the effects of the different products, but give it a try in some short words:

Zeovit & carbon is used as recommended. Zoevit to provide a “perfect” surface to host bacteria & to nourish the corals with the bio film. Carbon to keep the water clear to provide as much light as possible and to absorb toxins of the corals.

ZeoBac is dosed twice a week with each 2 drops regularly to keep up the bacteria chain intact which IMO is very basic. I believe a tank sooner or later gets a monoculture of some less bacteria strains which will not provide the possibility of a good working bacteria chain. In other words, one bacteria strain is able to process ammonia, another strain will process the waste products from the ammonia process to nitrite and so on ... If one of the bacteria strains is not present or only hosted in a “low” quantity the full process becomes affected.

ZeoFood is dosed twice a week with 2 drops. If overdosed I notice a brown or green slime (bacteria) and darker coral tissue.

ZeoStart is dosed twice daily with 3 drops each – if overdosed I notice air bubbles on the rocks and cut down the dosage a little bit. I the dosage is correct, coral colours are very bright and shiny, also no nutrients are detectable.

Amino acids are dosed with 2 drops daily. I use the poly expansion and the colouration as a parameter. If overdosed the tissue will become darker, also the accumulation of a brown bacteria slime can be observed. If I notice too light tissue, I increase the dosage also.

Macro Elements are dosed even if I feel the “general” coloration could be better. This is usually 1 or 2 ml once a week.

Iron is added once or twice a week if the green coloration is a little bit weak. Normally about 2 x 1 drop weekly.

Iodine is used in the same quantity and is dosed parallel to iron with the same goal.

Before I got my new skimmer I regularly dosed ZeoSpur 2, about every 14 – 21 days depending to the tissue colour. Since I use the new skimmer, this is not further necessary to keep the coral tissue light.

The dosing quantity in all products depends to the bio load and the present nutrient situation in the tank.

I have observed a lot of corals in the wild and if I judge the look of them, I would not say the corals in my tank look abnormal or much different.

Sorry for the long post, but maybe this could be a good base for a further discussion ?

G.Alexander

 

[reedman]

Great info from a real user. Thanks for coming over to talk and inform us Alexander.

 

[mojoreef]

But allow me a question, do you know any scientific paper which provides the information that these substances can also be taken from the water column by the corals ? Probably not

http://www.springerlink.com/app/hom...al,20,57;linkingpublicationresults,1:400407,1

http://www.springerlink.com/app/hom...l,79,104;linkingpublicationresults,1:100441,1

http://www.springerlink.com/app/hom...,147,460;linkingpublicationresults,1:400441,1

Now dont get me wrong the direct absorbsion of free aminos does play a role but just a small one in the over all collection/use of AA'a.

It becomes generally adopted that these substances are produced by the corals which might be correct.

Ahh thats another one that is kind of up in the air too. Their have been studies on the production of Amino acids by corals and for the most part it is understood that corals can produce/synthesize at least 16 of the 20 protein amino acids, eight of which are essential. But once again the ammount being produced is significantly less then required by the coral to satisfy its energy budjet.

I think it would be safe to say that through scientific studies that the following has been determined.
>Corals can absorb AA's directly from the water column but the AA's are in high demand by all other microscopic critters and the amount collected by the coral will not meet its energy budget.
>Corals can produce an amount of AA's directly but it is also not in the amount that can meet its energy budget
>corals do get an amoutn of AA's from the zoox through photosynthesis but again not enough to fulfill thier buget.
>The vast majority of AA's delivered or taken by the coral comes from bacteria or bacterial endosymbionts regularly convert sugars (which reef corals receive from their zooxanthellae) into amino acids, and if corals have access to bacterial products (e.g. digestion of bacteria or bacterial excretion of amino acids into the coelenteron), then in a functional sense corals have a previously unaccounted-for source of protein and amino acids. So in saying that the Zeo system could be a very viable method of delivery of AA's, thus all these crasy questions

The daily mixing of the material peels off the bio film from the stones and boosts it through the water column

Yes I am on the same page as you on this, I believe that the detritus released from this reactor would consist of bioflim/bacteria and general detrital products all of which would be very viable to the corals.

I would say the higher the nutrient accumulation in a tank is, the more time it will take to see a effect, but the effect will come, it is just a question of time

Yea agreed, I think taking your time when going from a normal system to the zeo system would be critical. This way you do not shock the corals through a sudden lack of nutritional pathways.

ZeoBac is dosed twice a week with each 2 drops regularly to keep up the bacteria chain intact which IMO is very basic. I believe a tank sooner or later gets a monoculture of some less bacteria strains which will not provide the possibility of a good working bacteria chain. In other words, one bacteria strain is able to process ammonia, another strain will process the waste products from the ammonia process to nitrite and so on ... If one of the bacteria strains is not present or only hosted in a “low” quantity the full process becomes affected.

Ok I can buy that, if different strains were provided it could enhance the cycling.

ZeoFood is dosed twice a week with 2 drops. If overdosed I notice a brown or green slime (bacteria) and darker coral tissue.

Interesting. I guess we could assume this is a soluable form of nutrient that has the ability to be directly absorbed by the corals also.

ZeoStart is dosed twice daily with 3 drops each – if overdosed I notice air bubbles on the rocks and cut down the dosage a little bit. I the dosage is correct, coral colours are very bright and shiny, also no nutrients are detectable.

Hmm any idea what would cause the air bubbles?? I would assume fixing of nitrogen? maybe co2 respiration??

Excellent post Alexander!! thanks alot. In reading the overall method you use for this system it seems that you are taking away certian forms of the corals natural pathways (reduction of zoox, elimination of free nutrient in the water) and in place are manually introducing pathways (mainly bacterial bit could be other direct absorbsion routes) to deliver the required nutrients/AA's and so on. I think taking the approach of dosing as you notice changes in the corals look and health would be an absolute rather then sticking to a general set of dosing schedules


Mike

 

[invincible569]

Alexander's tank is worldwide known and has made a lot of reefers skeptical at his great success. A lot of the skepticism was made on his aquarium being "real". Since then, Alexander has provided us growth pictures of his corals to stop some of this skepticism. Even videos were introduced to show that Photoshop was not used (I have the full DVD from Gary, but could only crop out small segments because of size constraints). Im not sure if you guys have seen his tank when he first started it up, but it was very bare and you could see his beautiful aquascape. Today, its full of corals from top to bottom and right to left.

http://www.captiveoceans.com/gallery-alexanderprogression.html

By the way, good post Alexander! For myself, I continue to use the following products:

ZEOstart2
ZEOvit rocks
ZEObak
ZEOfood7

Supps:
Potassium IodideFluoride
Amino Acids

The best thing I like about ZEOvit other than the results, is the ability to control the colors of your corals. In the past months, I was able to darken my corals by high dosing AA's, but recently, I have went back to recommended amounts in order to lighten my colors back up. It definitely works. Before ZEOvit, no one had a clue how to do this. Sometimes it amazes me how bright some of my corals are and how pretty they can get.

 

[mojoreef]

Yes I would have to agree a veery stunning tank, actually all the tanks on that site are beautiful. The lack of a ton of corraline looks like a dream to me to, lol

Vince I dont think thier is alot of skepticism here (well not me or the folks Pming me anyway) more like looking for a more detailed explaination on the systematics, which we are getting. When you say control of coloring you are refering to deepness of the color right?? not the actual color?


Mike

 

[Boomer]

I have always believed Alexander's tank was real, so none of that came from me, just how the system really works, chemically and biologically. I have no doubt the system works it is just how it works. And for the sake of argument lets really narrow that down for me ie., not interested in the food, the biofilms, growth rates, color, etc. for me, just what does the zeolite do or not do in chemical terms.

This article has appeared on a number of zeo threads and now I think the author wished he never wrote it. I think it is where allot of people get their ideas from. He recently visited our chem forum and posted it on a question on zeolites and appeared he was a little stunned by the data I posted.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i3/zeovit/Zeolite_Filters/Zeolite_Filters.htm

Alexander

You are running this thread like I hoped you would and expected, GREAT job

Mojo

You need some help old buddy, those links won't get anyone anywhere They all take you to the homepage

Net uptake of dissolved free amino acids by four scleractinian corals
Publication: Coral Reefs (Historical Archive)
Authors: M. Drew Ferrier
Publisher: Springer-Verlag GmbH
Issue: Volume 10, Number 4
Pages: 183 - 187

Excerpt: High pressure liquid chromatography was employed to provide the first definitive proof of the net uptake of dissolved free amino acids (DFFA) at nanomolar levels by four scleractinian corals ...



Are free amino acids responsible for the `host factor' effects on symbiotic zooxanthellae in extracts of host tissue?
Publication: Hydrobiologia
Authors: Clayton B. Cook, Simon K. Davy
Publisher: Springer Science+Business Media B.V., Formerly Kluwer Academic Publishers B.V.
Issue: Volume 461, Numbers 1-3
Pages: 71 - 78

Excerpt: Symbiotic dinoflagellates (`zooxanthellae') typically release short-term photosynthetic products and have enhanced photosynthesis when exposed to extracts of host tissue. Published evidence has indicated that free amino acids ...



Effects of turbidity on calcification rate, protein concentration and the free amino acid pool of the coral Acropora cervicornis
Publication: Marine Biology (Historical Archive)
Authors: J. J. Kendall, E. N. Powell, S. J. Connor, T. J. Bright, C. E. Zastrow
Publisher: Springer-Verlag GmbH
Issue: Volume 87, Number 1
Pages: 33 - 46

Excerpt: Calcification rate in the coral Acropora cervicornis was reduced significantly when exposed for 24 h to 100-ppm kaolin, but was unchanged in corals exposed to 50-ppm kaolin. Calcification rate returned to control ...


Ingestion and assimilation of nitrogen from benthic sediments by three species of coral
Publication: Marine Biology
Authors: M. M. Mills, K. P. Sebens
Publisher: Springer-Verlag GmbH
Issue: Volume 145, Number 6
Pages: 1097 - 1106

Excerpt: We quantified the nitrogen and enzyme hydrolyzable amino acid (EHAA) concentrations of sediments prior to and after corals sloughed, ingested, and egested sediments layered onto their surfaces, for the three coral ...


So corals can even filter "food" right out of the sediment that lands on them.