ZEOvit. Lets talk

[NaH2O]

Also you are adding bacteria culture to these rocks, (I imagine on a daily basis) whats the concept behind creating an articifal population size??

Mike - I'll keep waiting on the response regarding the mulm in the ZEOreactor versus the detritus (and bacteria associated with it) being blasted off live rock and kept into suspension :doubt:.

On the bacterial population size - I also wonder if this becomes dependent (wrightme43 posted a bit about it), and a tank would need to be weaned off the system. Similar to dosing Vodka?? You skip dosages of something and the bacterial population takes a hit?

 

[Illusion]

I am very interested in the actual product and the inter workings of it as well... I have seen so many different threads that contradict themselves about the uses and stuff that its hard to make out whats going on... The soon after the thread gets locked or deleted... Lets not take this thread that Direction... Lets get to the bottom of things... I have seen some negative things about Zeo and it crashing tanks... The things that turned me off of it was having to lower the Sg and other Params far out of NSW values... I personally dont see corals benifiting from this... I have seen some great tanks running Zeo but I have seen far better tanks not running it.. For instance Steve Weasts tank... I as most would like to know more about the actual products way before I start using it... I say someone send the stuff into a lab for analysis....

James

 

[Boomer]

Heniz

:lol:So you say lets follow Mojo's rule and what do you do more on Ger :lol:

No I did not go back and read 700 replies it is not a big deal to me like you. So what if he was, almost was or was not, what is your flippin point anyway and what is the big deal? He was for fact a dealer, be it for ZEOvit, wanted ZEOvit, did not have ZEOvit yet, he was a dealer/distributor in this hobby....period, that is against the by-laws....period. Why do you think he PM me, changed his sig and asked me how to start a Sponsor fourm for his comapny ?????????? Go argue with Ger

anyways, i am out, that was my last post regarding this

Well, good

 

[invincible569]

Mike - I'll keep waiting on the response regarding the mulm in the ZEOreactor versus the detritus (and bacteria associated with it) being blasted off live rock and kept into suspension :doubt:.

On the bacterial population size - I also wonder if this becomes dependent (wrightme43 posted a bit about it), and a tank would need to be weaned off the system. Similar to dosing Vodka?? You skip dosages of something and the bacterial population takes a hit?

Nah20, an aquarium is dependant on the bacteria it has stabilized on. Just as Mojo explained it in the Vodka thread, bacteria will stabilize over a period of time in areas of your tank such as the LR. Your tank will not take a hit if you skip a dosage or two. I've been off of bacteria for 2 weeks before without any problems. Think of it this way too.. bacteria will colonize on your aquarium windows... but you clean it off every other day or week so you can see through. You just released a bunch of bacteria back into the water, but nothing happens to your corals or fish. Thats because you still have living bacteria on your rocks and other areas. Now if you replaced your rocks, then thats a different story and we both know what happens then, a cycle!

As for the LR being blasted, its almost the same thing, but with the LR, you are also blasting off sand/detritus that has fallen into some of those rocks. LR pores are larger. Which may be a little more dirty! With the zeolites, the surface area is smoother and the purpose of tumbling your rocks every day or so is to keep the area clean for ion exchange to take place. It works the same way with Carbon. If you leave your carbon in a bag for a week or so without touching it and you open your bag, you see that the carbon has detritus or other mulm over it. This also prevents the carbon from doing its work if its being trapped from doing its absorbing job.

 

[NaH2O]

I get bacterial stabilization. I understand the processes with bacteria in regards to cycling, replacing live rock - I get all that. What I am confused about is the extra bacteria needs an extra food source to survive - take that extra food source away, some of the bacteria can't survive. Also, why add more bacteria, when it is already so abundant in our systems?

With the zeolites, the surface area is smoother and the purpose of tumbling your rocks every day or so is to keep the area clean for ion exchange to take place. It works the same way with Carbon. If you leave your carbon in a bag for a week or so without touching it and you open your bag, you see that the carbon has detritus or other mulm over it. This also prevents the carbon from doing its work if its being trapped from doing its absorbing job.

So is the cleaning of the zeolites to keep it clean for ion exchange or to feed the corals, which was presented by Scott? I'm getting confused here:

You are correct; after this happens when you stir the media via the ZEOvit reactor the skimmer should then skim it out of the water. When you stir it is also releasing what is called Mulm, which is what we are feeding to the Corals.

Scott

 

[gqjeff]

I am very interested in the actual product and the inter workings of it as well... I have seen so many different threads that contradict themselves about the uses and stuff that its hard to make out whats going on... The soon after the thread gets locked or deleted... Lets not take this thread that Direction... Lets get to the bottom of things... I have seen some negative things about Zeo and it crashing tanks... The things that turned me off of it was having to lower the Sg and other Params far out of NSW values... I personally dont see corals benifiting from this... I have seen some great tanks running Zeo but I have seen far better tanks not running it.. For instance Steve Weasts tank... I as most would like to know more about the actual products way before I start using it... I say someone send the stuff into a lab for analysis....

James

James, with the zeovit system you run your params closer to NSW then ever before.. Zeo never suggested running SG or any other param out of NSW levels.. I think you have that wrong...

 

[reedman]

So can anyone suggest what it is that the ZEOlite part of the system is there to do?

-Lock up ammonia?
-Mechanical filtration?
-Other?

Let's try to keep this moving forward so we can all better understand the system and its components.

 

[mojoreef]

Ok zeofolks thier has to be a concept here?? Someone please throw me a bone
I think if we let folks know about the concept and procedures (not product info) we can shed a little light on what your trying to do?? Would this not be a possitive thing??

Invincible you kind of lost me a bit my friend. If you are adding bacteria constantly you are not going to reach a point of static. Bacteria will only come close to static populations once they have reach an equalibruim with the amount of available food in the system. So if you dose bacteria and then an amount of zeofood to feed them your not going to reach that equalibrium. You are then sending them out into the system that an not support them, the result should be death ? Now maybe that is the plan, I am not sure thats why I am looking for a concept out line.

An example say would be my system. Its a BB tank, high energy. The concept is to keep the detritus in suspension in order to provide it as a source of food for the corals and/or critters in the tank tat can use it as a food source. In conjunction with that I have a larger overflow that takes out a good volume of the water in the tank and thus extra detritus with it. Once in the sump it is subjected to Ozone, UV, and a very large skimmer (so processed) and then returned. So basically nutrients are processed mechanically instead of being locked up in a cycle.

your turn


MIke

 

[Illusion]

ok when I first started to look at it people were stating that Sg had to be like 1.023 and your alk between like 5dkh and 7dkh... I thought that was a bit Extreme.. Guess things have changed a bit since then as well...

Looking thru the Guide thats on Captiveoceans now it states

Sg 33ppt - 35ppt
Alk 6.5-7.5

The alk is the only thing now that is lower than NSW... Nsw values from past research shows 8dkh.. I have always kept my tank at 8dkh.. And I noticed lots of growth and health there..

James

 

[invincible569]

I want to add that a lot of what you hear are theories on both ends of the zeovit argument. Its like anything else.. do you have a religion and why do you believe in it? Remember, this is how you perceive things given the facts, products and experience. Most of the ZEOvit methodoloy is ran by experience, trial and error. Most of the trial and error was done by T Pohl way long before it got to the U.S. With his experience, he found the ultimate solution to a low nutrient environment that would bring health to our corals and aquarium. Its a recipe you have to follow with strict guidelines. Everyone feels that the marketing for ZEOvit was so extreme that it turned them off. This is where this upsets me because T Pohl nor Gary have every advertised and marketed like other marine manufacturers have. The products spoke for themselves and the people who used it spoke out. Zeovit spread through word of mouth and by others seeing the changes in person. Anyhow, enough about that... I just wanted to clear it up since that is what gave ZEOvit its bad reputation. You have to know a little of the history to make better judgements and see if the product is for you or not. ZEOvit is still growing strong all over the world.

 

[invincible569]

Its safe to say that a lot of animals eat bacteria including humans (yogurt). The purpose of bacteria dosing is to replenish any lost bacteria by consumers such as snails, fish or corals. It serves two purposes, stability of the aquarium and a food source for those animals above the food chain that can benefit from consuming bacteria. Nitryfing bacteria multiples within half a day or more, but what if you had the aid of physically adding bacteria to your tank so it can get to those areas that dont have bacteria living on it just yet. By adding the bacteria, its free floating and will either be consumed by an animal or will land and colonize on a flat surface if that area is free of living bacteria. Its not about the quantity of bacteria you add, its the quality. Remember, we are only adding drops at a time and the concentration of drops may not be that great, but it may provide just enough bacteria to promote growth in those areas I talked about earlier.

 

[mojoreef]

Thanks Invincible for the bone, allbe it a small bone, lol. So If part of the concept of dosing bacteria is replace bacteria that may have been eaten or taken out of the equation and thus keep the tank more stable in regards to nitrifing, then what is the concept behind feeding them in the reactor with the zeofood?
Dosing them as a food source? ok I can buy into that right now.

Are all of you folks bare bottom now or is it a mix of BB and substraight folks?


Mike

 

[Boomer]

Vin

the surface area is smoother and the purpose of tumbling your rocks every day or so is to keep the area clean for ion exchange to take place.


Lets try to address that, what ionic exchange is taking place. Meaning, what ion is the zeolite giving up and what ion is taking its place. In Clino's it is Na +, which is replaced by double charged ions usually, such as Ca++ and Mg ++. If ammonia is high enough it will, even in seawater, pick up a mere tad of it. There are other water born ions that will also exchange but it is sill only giving up sodium. Due to the ionic strength in seawater zeolites become about useless in a hours for ionic exchange. What bacteria is doing the ionic exchange ? Are bacteria even capable of ionic exchange, which would have to be your theory. Any ref on bacteria doing ionic exchange ? Has anyone looked into the composition of a bacteria and its biogeochemistry?

Elemental composition of bacteria % by weight

C = 55

O = 20

N = 10

H = 8

P = 3

S = 1

Which of these are found in zeolites or which of these could exchange with zeolite. If the rocks have to be tumbled everyday then there is zero facultative anaerobic denitrification going on and the zeolite can only act as a nitrification media. If N, ammonia, in the zeolite, then why not just get it out of the passing water column ? What ion is the bacteria giving to the zeolite, they excrete NO3-, which has no ionic exchange in clino's or any other zeoltie we know of so far. Normally it is passed to facultative denitrifying bacteria which have a "Proximity" relationship with nitrifying bacteria.

The whole issue for most of us is none of the ZEOvit people can explain this claim or theory they have about ionic exchange. Could can facultative denitrifying bacteria push, shove excrete something into the zeoltie, yes maybe sulfide. If the bacteria can not fit into pores the tumbling the rock would expose the facultative denitrifying bacteria to O2, but that is OK, as these bacts can handle that. If the facultative denitrifying bacteria are still on the tumbled rock there will be no ionic exchange for ammonia unless some one want to suggest the ammonia diffuses right through the bacteria. If it does then some ion on the zeolite has to leave, Ca ++, Mg++, Na , K+ so are these diffusing right through the bacteria. Ok, now what ever it is hw do the nitrifying bacteria get the ammonia from the zeolite exchange site through the facultative denitrifying bacteria to feed on. None of this make sense



Nice post Mojo


edit

vin

Just saw your last post, it sound like the zeolite has no fuction at all other than just a media to grow on.

 

[mojoreef]

Ahhh finally some data. Ok Boomer I want to play a bit. What if the concept you just put out was reversed??? As in the zeolite was already ammoniated???



MIke

 

[reedman]

That might be the most plausible option I've heard yet Mike. I have yet to find any information (outside of Zeo) that talks about a zeolite that works in saltwater. They are all recharged in saltwater. So maybe you are onto something.

My only question then is, if you put a typical zeolite in saltwater it doesn't take long for it to recharge for use again in freshwater applications.

I'm still a bit confused as to how ZeoVit could find a zeolite (let alone 3) that work in saltwater to remove anything.

I am open minded though and would love to see a way these work.

I did find this reference, but couldn't track it down...maybe Boomer can

Darmansjah, A.M., (1993), “Evaluation of the Performance of Zeolite in Saltwater Systems”, Bachelor of Engineering Thesis (9545), The University of Queensland.


​

 

[mojoreef]

Ok here are some thoughts, maybe some one can help me if I am out to lunch, lol
Basic concept here seems to be lowering nutrients in the tank, which in turn should reduce zoox population and thus expose more of the corals pigments, the secon half of the system seems to deal more in the line of replenishing elements that are also reduced zia the first half of the system.
So if we break down some stuff. The system call for heavy skimming, strong lighting and the constant use of activated carbon. No problem I live in that world to. In the zeovit litrature and conversations a few things keep coming. One is nutrient lowering, the talk seems to center around the zeolite stones but I cant get my hands around these things having the ability to do that much in a saltwater system, But in saying that and looking at a variety of tanks using zeo it would be easy to assume they are low nutrient. So where is that coming from??
Ok zeostart, zeofood and zeobak are the balance of the front end of this system. They all contain bacteria and one has the addition of some bacterial food. So bacteria bacteria bacteria being dosed at a constant rate, high rate at that for sure.
So this raised the question of the creation of an artifically high population of bacteria and then releasing them on the nutrients in the tank, then using high skimming rates and carbon to once again pull the over population out once they have fixed nutrients to thier matrix??
If this high population of bacteria is released into the reef tank they would immedaitely begin to source food, detritus, food waste, sps slime netting?? and so on. Combined with good flow this could put an amount of a good food source into the water column and thus available to corals. Now the pitfall of this is the ability of the reef tank to sustain such a high level of bacterial population. So thus comes the fact of big skim and constant carbon for removal, also (and this is a guess) if the zeolite were already ammoniatized then it would serve as a source of food also? exchanging Ca+2 for Nh4+ and H+.
The back end of the zeo system is a series of ....well lets call them micro/macro nutrients. So Potassium iodide/floride = promotes enzymes
Iron= macro nutrient, zeospur= macro/micro nutirents, amino acids = reef candy, trace element solution= macro nutrients and so on and so forth. Now the only way I can see any of the nutrients or even any of the back end products get to the coral is via bacteria. Mainly because I cant see any of them get passed the bacteria.
So if this system is all about bacteria overload for reduction and food then is the backend of the system designed to gut load the bacteria in order to deliver them to the corals??


Anyway some scattered the thought.


Mike

 

[reedman]

So based on what you are saying here Mike, this is similar to feeding very heavily and skimming the heck out of the tank to take out what is not eaten. Oversimplified, but the principle remains. This also would mean that the "mulm" is probably nothing more that uneaten food matter that is released back into the system for the corals to try again and to clear a mechanical filter (reduce/eliminate channeling) just like shaking up a back of carbon. This means the primary nutrient export is still skimming and the system boils down to an elaborate food.

 

[gqjeff]

Well I am not sure what the zeoliths take out of the water but it def does something..
Here is a link to a thread of my zeo corals I posted last night...

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8949&page=3
It is working great for me and until it doens't I will not change the system at all.. If it is expensive food then its worth it as my corals are damn healty and in 14.5 yrs of reefing I could never touch the success I am getting now...

Peace, Jeff

 

[reedman]

Not doubting that it works...it definitely does...just can't figure out how

 

[mojoreef]

So based on what you are saying here Mike, this is similar to feeding very heavily and skimming the heck out of the tank to take out what is not eaten

Well Reed I am just taking an educated guess here. It would seem that way but the trick here would be in the use of bacteria as a transport means for the food stock. Which if correct has a strong bases.

This also would mean that the "mulm" is probably nothing more that uneaten food matter that is released back into the system for the corals to try again and to clear a mechanical filter (reduce/eliminate channeling) just like shaking up a back of carbon. This means the primary nutrient export is still skimming and the system boils down to an elaborate food.

Yea but as I have always preached detritus is the best food source you can get, not just because of it but because its covered in bacteria, maybe in this case gut loaded bacteria, DOnt know just throwing crap at the wall and seeing if it will stick?? lol

gqjeff

Well I am not sure what the zeoliths take out of the water but it def does something..

I am not sure either Jeff, maybe its taking or maybe its giving. This part of the equation i am not sure about.

It is working great for me and until it doens't I will not change the system at all.. If it is expensive food then its worth it as my corals are damn healty and in 14.5 yrs of reefing I could never touch the success I am getting now...

Jeff my friend that is not my intension. Personally I dont care how anyone has their reef tank running, its thier tank. I think this system is interesting and I would like to know more about it, that is why I asked Scott to start it.
At Reef Frontiers we dont try to slam systems or concepts, we try to understand and explain them. From that each individual member gets enough information to make thier own individual choice.


Mike