ZEOvit. Lets talk

[wrightme43]

Not a dumb question Nikki, its a good question. I dont know the answer though, and would like to know myself. LOL Steve

 

[reedman]

Nikki, I know some of their products need to be refridgerated and have a limited shelf life so they are definitely live. I'm not sure on what strains of bacteria are in the bottles though. I would think they are in a liquid sucrose of some kind to keep them alive. Just guessing though.

 

[gqjeff]

Bac is the supp that needs to be kept in the fridge..

 

[Ed Hahn]

The positives definitely out weigh the negatives..
If I could set up a Tank and have clean Live Rock, not have to clean my glass, My corals reponding to better water quality, If I do not have to dismantle my pumps as often to clean them because of less build up in internal moving parts due to better water quality.
Things that come to mind to me are....Is my Ph stable using this type of system? Will this system keep my tank too clean?
I am ready to take the plunge when I can afford it.


I think products that are hand made are only as rellable as those that made them. I think we are learning that with Salt now a days. I hear it time and time again, set up two aquariiums alike same everything and they react diffently due to uncontrolable cicumstances. We are all scientist. We usually use a method that we feel safe with or has worked well for us or in here from a reliable friend. I have a friend that is using this method and is talking highly of it. I wish he could have been in Tank tour. He lives in Burbank.

 

[NaH2O]

I'm also guessing the bacteria would be in a sugar solution, but I wondered if there was anything else used for food and would sustain the life of the bacteria. I suppose as the bacteria die, the remaining ones would consume the others.

Ed - I rarely have to clean the algae off my acrylic - unless its coralline. My rocks, however, are a different story. The way my tank is designed - high flow, bigger skimmer, detritus kept in suspension, I wonder how much of a difference this system would make since I am trying for nutrient removal, too. I need more in depth answers to the concepts and the function of this system before I add something like this to my tank. I'm not saying I wouldn't use it - I might give it a go, if I get a better understanding of it, and feel it would help out.

 

[mojoreef]

MikeS

Different paths to the same destination, right? Both result in elevated bacteria levels...bacteria are going to quickly try to seek an equalibrium based on available food....

Not really. If you look at say the vodka concept. the idea is to dose a carbon source that makes existing bacteria hyperize their respiration and thus fix more nitrogen. Yes the result would be an oversized population eventually. From what I am reading about this system you are adding additional bacteria constantly and then using heavy skimming and carbon to remove it and the associated detritus. Can you see the difference thier??

probably not...but then they are simply selling us something that already exists in our tanks to start with...kinda the point I was hinting towards

No they would be selling you more bacteria that doesnt exist in your tank at any given moment. ??

I got it...lots of varibles there still....lots can still go wrong I think...ie wrong dose of bacteria and nutrients vs. bioload, perhaps inadequate skimming

Sure overdosing anything can create problems.



Mike

 

[mojoreef]

Boy, my question must have been really dumb, since noone has offered an answer, yet

Thier could be a number of things that could carry the bacteria Nikki, Since I have not seen a bottles label I dont know what they use?

Jeremy B

So what you are hypothesizing is that the excess nutrient is not actually being removed by any filtration at all, other than biological

No not really. What I am seeing is alot of extra bacteria being dosed to the tank that then bind up nutrients and then are either offered up as food for the corals or are removed via skimming and carbon. So basically using bacteria as a vehical to deliver nutrients and other additives to corals as a food source, and in the same breathe using the bacteria as a nutrient sink to be remove via mechanical filtration???

Ed

The positives definitely out weigh the negatives..

Well that was the concept of the thread Ed. Just like all the other systems out thier its best to have a decent educated understanding of the system before jumping in. In having a good understanding if someone was to try the system they might have a better chance at being sucessful and knowing what to watch for. Or they may decide this is a complicated system that requires very high husbandry techniques and might be more then th individual is willing to do. or really anything in bewteen that,, lol


gqjeff it looks like you have some good experence in keeping sps in general and are using the zeosystem, by the looks of your corals I would say very sucessfully!!! Can you throw out some of the experences you have had. As in what did you notice from the begining of use to date. If you have the time I would appreciate.


Mike

 

[Boomer]

gqjeff

Nie pics

http://photobucket.com/albums/v467/gqjeff/jeffs reef/?start=36

 

[scottw]

Nikki, I know some of their products need to be refridgerated and have a limited shelf life so they are definitely live. I'm not sure on what strains of bacteria are in the bottles though. I would think they are in a liquid sucrose of some kind to keep them alive. Just guessing though.

ZEObak is the one that needs to be in the fridge. It is the only product with a shelf life, and that is 3-4 months after you open it. I can tell you I have had one that went 5 months and was still good. You will know when it is bad, it smells bad. Hope that helps.

 

[scottw]

gqjeff

Nie pics

http://photobucket.com/albums/v467/gqjeff/jeffs reef/?start=36

I 2nd that.. What I like most that most people don't even see is the algae (or lack there of) on the rock and in the tanks. Sure the colors are wonderful but as others have said, people not using zeovit can have great colors as well. But the amount of algae in a zeovit tank vs a non-zeovit tank, I have not seen one close yet. JBNY comes about the closest and he still has algae. not saying zeo users don't, b/c we do, I just don't ever see much of it. I wipe down my tanks maybe once a month or twice a month at most. I am able to spend more time watching things grow and swim then I ever have before, so for me its worth it to run zeovit on that alone.

 

[Boomer]

Scott on another note and it was questioned above but no answer yet from you ZEO guys.

What if, for some reason, a bottle of the ZEO went bad or one could not get access to it or ran out, say for two weeks or a month, what will happen to the system ? IICR Alex touched on this last year, such as if you do not clean the zeo things start to not look to good for the corals. I think this is a real issue many want to know before the dive in so to speak.

I'm working on trying to get Alex here but like may others, me included, we need to stop hammering each other in regards to such subjects as Microbial Biogeochemisty. Know one has the answer yet until we see some real tests conducted on a ZEOvit system. And when I say I'm tired of the debating on bio-chemical issues, who says what, what paper says what, knit-pic this and that, that is bad :lol: I'm 100 % sure that all ZEOvit users would like to know the real microbial biogeochemistry, know mater what the out come, me too.


Forgot

But the amount of algae in a zeovit tank vs a non-zeovit tank


But is that a good thing for the rest of the reef life ?

 

[scottw]

Scott on another note and it was questioned above but no answer yet from you ZEO guys.

What if, for some reason, a bottle of the ZEO went bad or one could not get access to it or ran out, say for two weeks or a month, what will happen to the system ? IICR Alex touched on this last year, such as if you do not clean the zeo things start to not look to good for the corals. I think this is a real issue many want to know before the dive in so to speak.

Forgot

But the amount of algae in a zeovit tank vs a non-zeovit tank


But is that a good thing for the rest of the reef life ?

To answer your first question. I have not had one go bad on me, and have not read about one going bad on anyone. I for one have missed a dose here and there, as a matter of fact it was a full week when I was out of town and so was the wife. Nothing happened, everything was fine, I got back and resumed the same amount of dosing as I did before with no problems at all. I have had 2 clients run out of bak for 2 weeks and nothing happened to their system.

To answer part 2 of your system. I keep SPS, I have VERY few fish, so for me the lack of algae is not a problem from what I know and see. I feed the few fish and have no problems. What it does to the rest of the reef? Not sure, do you know?

scott

 

[Boomer]

OK. I remember Alex saying something about stopping the system or not cleaning the zeo and the corals strat to turn. I do not remember how long it was for. Maybe I'll go find it later somewhere on that 800 post thread to see what he actually said :lol:

 

[scottw]

OK. I remember Alex saying something about stopping the system or not cleaning the zeo and the corals strat to turn. I do not remember how long it was for. Maybe I'll go find it later somewhere on that 800 post thread to see what he actually said :lol:

hahaha. There are a lot of them .. Just search for "Closed" lol

 

[Boomer]

Well, here are some of Alex's posts in case he does not come. They speak for themselvies but try not to read into somethings. I'm posting them so one can se how he runs his sytem.


#1My tank is running with this method since 2 years. I used the method since starting this tank.

There are some rules which are necessary to follow. I they are not practiced the system will not work.

Keeping Tridacna, Xenia and soft corals in my tank is no problem. They grow up quick and look very healthy.

With the SPS I had never problems. They show beautiful colors and very fast growth. I only use 250 W bulbs. Light is important, but it is not necessary to use 400 W or 1000 W bulbs. I also keep some frags out of the tanks from the startup page korallen-zucht.de, they are kept under 1000 W bulbs. In my tank the coloration is the same. No difference.

The person who developed this system is not known in Italy. Why is it so important to know this person ? There are many people keeping excellent tanks which have never published their experiences in magazines. By the way this person is well known in Germany.

In such a low nutrient environment, the population of zooxanthellae is low. The SPS would be underfeed if there is only the nutriment from the zooxanthellae. Other elements are needed to keep them healthy. In the other components of this method these elements are contained. As much as I know all the supplemental mixes do not contain such elements.

The zeolite can not work as a biological filter, because the water flow is much to high. It is recommended to use water flow of 400 liters for every liter of the material. It is necessary to keep the material clean, that is the cause why they offer a filter for easy cleaning the material daily in one minute.

If I see how many people spend a lot of money for miracle cure, hardware and trace elements, I really can not understand why this method is cost-intensive.

Neither the bacteria nor the bacteria food contains iron which could fell PO4.

#2
I understand that there are many critical people. Many things of these method are really new and never practiced this way. What I do not understand that people judging it without any experience. They have never tried the method. Here in Germany many people thought that adding any zeolite is the key, but this is dangerous and some of them lost all their SPS. There are some attributes to the material making the use of zeolite in a reeftank possible.

The water flow should have a minimum of 400 liters per liter zeolite. I did experiments with a water flow from 1000, to 3000 liters per hour. For my tank I use 3 liters of the material in a tube, with a AquaBee 2000/1. That should bring about 1500 liters per hour to the material. With this flow I had the best results.

There is no biological filter effect try not to read into this if the material is always flowed. It is necessary to keep the material clean, because the crystal lattice should not be plugged. I use a 120 mm PVC tube, the water flow is from the button to the top. The tube is not barred so the water can pass a 90 degree arc back to the tank. On the button there is a PVC disc with holes. In the middle of the disc I have affixed a PVC bar. I pull the bar twice a day for about 15 cm and the material rinse down to the button. That keeps the material always clean.

How the system relay works ? I do not know. All the components are created by practical tests in their tanks. Many thinks are not explainable, but the work.

Sorry for misunderstanding the “effective”

There are some points you have to know. If you run such an nutrient low system, the SPS must be kept under the natural concentrations of Mg, Ca, KH and salinity. These concentrations should be as stabile as possible. A weekly 5 % water change is also advantageous. Strong skimming is necessary. I also use 1 liter activated carbon for my 1300 liter tank. I change the carbon every 4 weeks, the zeolite every 6 – 8 weeks. Do not add any trace elements beginning with the method, only the elements brought by the water change are enough.

If you have a feeling to your SPS you can careful add supplements like iodine, amino acid and some other elements. Only some drops per week.

NO3 and PO4 are not measurable with photometers in my tank.

#3
I agree with Sam that it is necessary to do regularly water changes. My opinion is that SPS in such a nutrient low environment need other food sources than the products of the zooxanthellae, because they are low and the metabolite products they produce are not enough to keep them alive. What supplements these are I can not say, but I am sure that some of them come with the synthetic salt mixes. With the “bottles of trace elements” you only add some known necessary elements, but I thing not everything which the SPS can benefit. That is in my point the advantage for the water changes. Beyond it is necessary to add vitamins, amino acids and some other elements which the SPS can dispose. This is the add on for the method.

The zeolite material brings nothing to the tank which is bad for the SPS. Carbon is especially ran to keep the water clear, remove harmful substances including nettle poison. It also supports clear water, so the light comes straight to the SPS. The color change is not the only effect of the light, but it supports. Take care to use carbon with no PO4.

Another point I noticed: If there is no detectable PO4 and NO3 in the system, fluctuations of Mg, Ca, KH and salinity is delicate. Maybe some other parameters, I can not measure. I constant can notice that salinity above 34 ppm brings problems. The colors fading and sometimes I got problems with losing tissue. Ca, Mg and KH should be kept in natural levels.

I also can advise that it is necessary to clear (move) the zeolite daily to keep it clean, because after some days the molecular sieves become blocked up by bacteria and duff. If that happens the activity of the material is not sufficien

#4

Many people have tried to explain how the system works. As you noticed this are only assumptions.

Maybe it would help to know which bacteria are contained in the bottles. There are some types of bacteria which can perform nutrient reduction very effective. Maybe the bacteria can bind the PO4 to be skimmed and exported ?

My opinion is that the zeolite reduces only ammonia, the first substance in the cycle. The system works better if the zeolite is cleaned daily by mixing the material in the filter. That prevents the material to fill up the fine capillary with duff. Also the duff seems to be good to the corals.

Since some weeks I run the zeolite in my filter with an interval. Switching on the water flow for 3 hours, switching of for 3 hours and so on. That seems to help to reduce PO4 under 0,01 mg (Photometer).

In the food there are many elements the corals can handle. Also some elements to boost the reproduction of the bacteria.

The corals can absorb both, the elements in the food and also the bacteria.

The carbon absorbs many other harmful substances and helps to keep the water always very clear.

The combination of all these components bring the effect. It is sold as system and that is the only way how it really works.

#5
I am not a zeolite expert. I can tell that there are thousand of different zeolites available on the market. Each one has his own attributes. Why should there be no material with positive attributes working in seawater ?

My question is when the zeolite is not in a position to bind anything in the water why do the SPS react with better coloration and lighter tissue after changing the material. I also did tests and added bacteria and food to the tank running the old material for 10 weeks. You can not see the effect as the zeolite is changed.

Lars Sebralla as much as I know only analyze one of the four different zeolites. I thing this is not significant.

The bacteria and the food contain no form of iron. The system works not with felling PO4 via iron. I thing the bacteria do this job.

#6
Believe me they grow. I have to continuous cut them to prevent growing together and damage each other. I wrote the article you described in April 2002. Many things have changed since the publication. I also lost some of my first corals having problems with wrong Testkits, also with a bad salt brand. But most of the corals showed in the article are alive and growing well. I also try not to become very big colonies, because I did the experience that compact corals loose their tissue because of the very low current inside the colony.

80 % of the corals in the pictures I posted are longer than 12 month in my tank, some of them grow up out of small fragments. Some of them are since the beginning in my tank. I setup the the tank in September 2001.

I also think you undervalue the colony size from the pictures.

#7
I use the BLV bulbs together with the T5 ATI BluePlus. The ATI BluePlus are much more intensive than the normal blue version. The tank looks more blue then yellow with this combination. I change my bulbs and the tubes regularly every 8 month, but I plan to add two further T5.

#8
the system works in conjunction with live bacteria. UV sterilizers, also ozone will destroy them. This is counterproductive.

Also the SPS participate from the bacteria as a food source.

This is it for now

I hope it answers some questions.

Another pic of Alex's tank

 

[Boomer]

Heniz.

You said the following earlier, so just to clear things up while looking for Alex's post on that thread, ran into this

did you not read the thread you posted, you can see that Ger is talking about that he wants to talk to thomas about selling it in the US, nothing was set in stone yet, even Eric was trying to bring zeo over to the US, i guess it would help if you would actually read the thread,
Ger also posted that he is talking to Thomas about getting the zeo stuff to him so he could try it out, am i missing something ?


Now how does one take that. Looks like a dealer to me placing orders. He is telling you he is taking orders and if you need or have questions on pricing. See that part get in trouble...sales and anybody interested

That is what got him in trouble, he was reported and I handled it by PM and he change his sig to a dealer, which was not there before. And Like I said I think Gary is a good guy, just did not know the rules. It makes no difference if he was a real ZEOVit dealer or not, it has no baring on it what so ever. It is not another ZEOvit rumor

Ger
I am planning on ordering some of the Zeovit System shortly. Anybody who is interested, please let me know and I can add it to the shipment. Also, the price of the system depends on your tank size and what parts of the Zeovit system you are planning on using. Some of the system is Iodine, Iron, Trace elements, etc..... Not sure if you need to order that from oversees. Send me an e-mail if you have specific questions or if you need pricing. I don't want to get in trouble with the administrators regarding sales on this board. My e-mail is [email protected]

 

[mojoreef]

Send me an e-mail if you have specific questions or if you need pricing. I don't want to get in trouble with the administrators regarding sales on this board. My e-mail is [email protected]

Boomer your last post would consistute commercal posting, I mus ask you to refrain from such activity in the future!! :evil: :badgrin:

Alex does have a nice looking tank for sure. In looking at it the big things that come to mind right away is the definate lack of algae, even corraline algae for the most part. The second is the color of the corals, I have a few of the same breeds of corals and thier are different in my tank compared to his. Not so much in the exact color but more of a lighter shade of the same color. This would because of the reduced zoox I am sure.

Well I am still very intrigued by this system, hopefully someone can give us a blow by blow on what, when and how they noticed change in thier tanks by using

MIke

 

[reedman]

This is an old write up, but it was the bst explaination of how a zeolite works in saltwater, and is disconnected from the ZeoVit system (at least to my knowledge).

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i3/zeovit/Zeolite_Filters/Zeolite_Filters.htm

Here are a few interesting quotes from it:

The Zeolites now used for seawater preferentially absorb ammonium, but this is just one half of the story. The other half is where the biology comes in. As already mentioned, Zeolites have a very porous structure. Under the microscope, they look almost like a sponge. The larger holes are MUCH bigger than the smaller ones, about a thousand times bigger. This porous structure creates a large surface area for bacteria to settle. As the ammonium is adsorbed by the crystal structure, the bacteria living on the Zeolite get their food delivered to their doorstep. To enhance the filtration capacity,a carbon source is added, in most cases not directly into the filter, but into the aquarium. In most cases, aquaria are carbon limited.

There is also another method of nutrient removal working in Zeolite filters. As the bacterial biofilms build up, a lot of nitrogen compounds are actually fixed in the biomass and thereby removed from the water. When the biofilms become too thick and rip off, the skimmer may catch them and thereby remove these biologically fixed nutrients from the water.

The major advantage of these filters is also their major danger: They remove ammonium very rapidly and extremely efficiently. Although ammonium concentrations are never high (at least they should not be), it is a very important component in the nitrogen cycle. By removing it almost completely, all other processes will be influenced as well.

 

[NaH2O]

#8
the system works in conjunction with live bacteria. UV sterilizers, also ozone will destroy them. This is counterproductive.

Gads! I never even considered this. Does it really matter if the bacteria are destroyed on their way to the tank? If they are in the water column, the corals could still use them as a food source.

 

[MikeS]

MikeS

Not really. If you look at say the vodka concept. the idea is to dose a carbon source that makes existing bacteria hyperize their respiration and thus fix more nitrogen. Yes the result would be an oversized population eventually. From what I am reading about this system you are adding additional bacteria constantly and then using heavy skimming and carbon to remove it and the associated detritus. Can you see the difference thier??

Got it....


MikeS