ZEOvit

[reedman]

Thanks Brian.

I'm on the fence on this system, as many others are too. I like the results people are seeing, but I just want to better understand what is happening with the ion exchange. Zeolites are not new. They've been used for a long time, but the exchange ions in the Zeovit system are not disclosed so we have no idea what ions are being introduced to our tanks, hense, no idea of long term effects. More reading is in order I guess.

 

[bobgoode]

Hi Mike, I'm at the 1/2 yr. mark on ZEOvit. There are some tank pixs on the ZEOvit Forum under "Aged Salt's tank pix" taken by a fellow Indiana reefer, ReefTechie.

Reed, nobody really knows the exact mechanism of action of these specialized zeolites, but without a doubt the end result is nutrient-poor, pristine water which bathes the corals, allowing intense color & growth. Bob

 

[FinsReef]

reedman, check out this link and see if it answers any of your questions.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i3/zeovit/Zeolite_Filters/Zeolite_Filters.htm

 

[reedman]

Thanks Brian,
I have that printed out and have read it several times. I understand what the concepts are and how the whole process works, I just would like to know what the process introduces into my tank. I think Bob hit it on the nose (sort of). Nobody outside the sealed doors of ZeoVit knows what zeolites the company is using and therefore no-one knows what the ion exchange is. We just know that it does bind P and N for future removal via zeolite exchanges, and that running a good quality carbon will aid in water clarity. The extra addatives are a bit worrisome to me in that if you do not measure them to determine your current levels (what's the uptake rate of your tank) how do you know you are dosing at the correct levels. I don't feel that supplementation is a one-size-fits-all deal. But the concept as a whole looks pretty solid and I can't argue with the results.

Thanks for the link.

 

[invincible569]

Great!! A Zeovit Thread. How about making a Zeovit forum?

 

[FinsReef]

Invinsible,
We can discuss ZEOvit all we want in my vendor forum below.
Brian
FinsReef

 

[OUinLA]

Thanks Brian,
I have that printed out and have read it several times. I understand what the concepts are and how the whole process works, I just would like to know what the process introduces into my tank. I think Bob hit it on the nose (sort of). Nobody outside the sealed doors of ZeoVit knows what zeolites the company is using and therefore no-one knows what the ion exchange is. We just know that it does bind P and N for future removal via zeolite exchanges, and that running a good quality carbon will aid in water clarity. The extra addatives are a bit worrisome to me in that if you do not measure them to determine your current levels (what's the uptake rate of your tank) how do you know you are dosing at the correct levels. I don't feel that supplementation is a one-size-fits-all deal. But the concept as a whole looks pretty solid and I can't argue with the results.

Thanks for the link.

reedman, it is impossible to make one dosing instruction the same for every tank. We recommend starting with a certain dose and adjusting from there if needed. When an overdose occurs (talking about the iron, potassium, aminos, etc) we can see a yellowish/green film. From that, we know to back off a little bit, and wait. When you are at the correct dosage, your corals will tell you.

 

[reedman]

OUinLA,
Nice to see you here at Reef Fontiers. I have followed the threads in RC, so completely understand and appreciate what you are saying with the dosing instructions. My question is more technical. I am wondering, when the ion exchange happens between the zeolites and the N and or P components in our tanks, some ions are released by the zeolites in order to allow the N or P to bind (preferencial binding); What ions are released? I undersand if this is proprietary information, but it would be nice to know what we are putting into the tank in order to remove the N & P.

So far I like to concept. I have learned through trial & many error that it is better to fully understand what you are putting in your tank before you put it in there.

Thanks & glad to see you in here.

-Reed

 

[OUinLA]

Thanks for the welcome. Unfortunately, I don't know if I have the information you need. I will tell you what I know or at least think I know, lol.

I'm not sure that the binding of N or P is done by the ZEOlites. If I remember correctly, from the first thread on RC about ZEOvit, someone said (maybe Alexander Girz) that this wasn't the process or function of the zeolites.

I believe that the binding of N or P would be happening from the addition of ZEOstart. That is the product that we add in ml's and not drops. Are you familiar with the vodka method? Or how it works? This part of ZEOvit, imo, is working similarly to vodka. It's a refined product that is controlled so that you don't run into the problems people have had with over dosing vodka.

 

[reedman]

I haven't read much on the vodka dosing (I honestly chuckled when I read about it the first time thinking it was a joke). I guess I missed the part explaining that the ZEOstart is the food source for certain bacteria cultures responsible for breakdown of nitrate and phosphate. This makes more sense to me now. The ZEOliths remove specific toxins complimenting the effects of heavy skimming and carbon filtration. This all adds up to very clean water facilitating good light transmission.

It's all becoming clear...

Thanks for the info. I may very well try this system in the future (once my sump is up and running).

-Reed

 

[mojoreef]

Reed if the zoestart is the same concept as the Vodka method (which makes sence) the idea is that the vodka gives bacteria a carbon source (lots of food) which makes the bacteria respire like crasy. the respiration is what reduces nutrients, mostly N not so much P. Pro for it is excellerate respiration, con is thier addicted and need it or the population will decrease.

OUinLA reading your post above I would say the formation of the yellow green slime is probibly more to do with the iron then the other additives. I have seen this happen quite a bit with folks that dose heavy iron and or just swapped out an old MM bed. Maybe that might help it dosage recomendations

mike

 

[SaltwaterTeen]

I have done extensive research on this system. While Zeovit does indeed do exactly what it claims I am still very leary of it. Zeovit is a zeolith based system and zeoliths are natural filtration using DE (Diatomaceous Earth) in a rock form to strip your water. These particular zeoliths used are essestially the same (slightly different) natural filtration used in the resins inside of our RO systems. So indeed it does strip your water of all the nasties including phosphates and the like, however it also strip your water of the good as well including calcium. This is why the systems insists you use heavy skimming and a calcium reactor in addition to the supplements you MUST add to maintain your system. In this aspect the filtration media fills quickly and must be changed every 6 weeks, and at $20 a liter gets expensive quickly. This system is also billed as a bacterial based system thought not entirely true. It does utilize a bacterial additive that assists in water purity. This is why you must churn the media almost daily to spread the bacteria throughout your system.

So again, yes the system works by creating a system of low nutrients more like a natural system. I have seen this in action and have used it in various test situations. However it is my conclusion and fears that it is a very finicky system that leans heavily on dedicated maintenence. My fear is that coral propogation facilities move to this system for better growth and coloration as it is easier to maintain in a larger system and in turn sell coral that are used to this low nutrient envorinment and shock badly when placed into home systems that are high in nutrients causing bad reactions in acclimation and even death to the coral.

I would recommend this system for say a home 180 Gallon that was SPS only. These systems are kind of weird in that softies will not make it and only the highest calcium demanding specimens thrive (SPS). There is also limited to no coraline growth at all. But indeed the coral are absolutley amazing. But don't frag it and put it in a non Zeovit system....

Again I have done a lot of research in this area because initially I was very interested in this technique and in my upcoming business I wanted to produce a similar system at half the cost. I have been successfull in finding the right media naturally mined in Colorado however I have not been able to replicate the additive balance.

SO, big SPS only tank with Ca Reactor, Neilson reactor, Huge Beckett skimmer, and tone o' flow, heck ya! Anything else, no friggin' way.

 

[SaltwaterTeen]

that was a quote from aquarium advice, thought i'd share...

 

[OUinLA]

Thanks for your thoughts.

ZEOlith does not pull out phosphates. It does pull out amonia. I haven't heard of anyone having calcium issues (calcium depletion). There are well over 100 users in the US and I have never heard of this being a problem. The reason why we suggest using a ca reactor is for a couple of reasons, one being stability, the other is to limit the nutrients, trace elements etc. I do know a couple users that are not using a calcium reactor and their additions of kalk or Randy's two part calcium additive has not increased.
The low corraline growth is a result of lower alkalinity, not ZEOvit. We suggest keeping the alk around sea water levels. If you keep it on the high side of this, the corraline will still grow, and if you go even a little higher, it grows to where it becomes a nuisance.

LPS and softies also benefit from this system. There are even products that are specifically produced for LPS corals within the ZEOvit method. Coloration and increased growth are observed in all tanks ranging from softies, to LPS to SPS.

Also, it is no problem taking a ZEO frag and putting it in a non ZEO tank. It might not stay the same color, but that is common even without using ZEOvit. We take corals right from the ocean and put them in our tanks all the time, this isn't that much different (in terms of low to higher nutrients).

Also, the message said to use a kalk reactor which we don't recommend. It's believed that the percipitated phosphates might not get skimmed out and are left in the tank to form phosphate pools.

If you ask ZEOvit users they will probably tell you that this system is around the same monthly costs or less than what they spent before trying this method.

Lastly, I don't know of anyone that has upgraded their skimmer because they started ZEOvit. A good skimmer is necessary, but most of us already have skimmers on our reef tanks anyway.

I'm not trying to argue, I just want to point out some misconceptions.

 

[invincible569]

OUinLA,
What ions are released? I undersand if this is proprietary information, but it would be nice to know what we are putting into the tank in order to remove the N & P.

-Reed

Reed, a ZEOvit zeolith is made up of positive sodium & potassium ions ready to be exchanged with Ammonium ions, absorption. It is said that older zeolites absorb tremendous amounts of calcium ions, but with Thomas's choice of selection, this isnt the case anymore. At least not AS much depleting Ca levels in your aquarium. Only certain ions will be able to fit into the zeolite microcavities that is why only SOME elements are "ionicly exchanged" until fully saturated. In this case, 6 wks per Thomas's experience.

 

[mojoreef]

OUinLA we dont argue here just have good solid discussions so feel free with out worry. Question for ya. Do you run your alk lower or is it still balanced with the calcium. As is say or a person running 1.025, cal at 415 and alk a 7.5dkh??

Mike

 

[invincible569]

Mike, I run my Alk at 8, 1.025, 470, 8.1, 1350. Everything is balanced and there is no need for additional supplements unless i do a water change.

You can run your parameters differently if you feel it is better. It doesnt have to be this way just because your using ZEOvit. Its better to mimic the oceans parameters as we know these are the perfect conditions for these animals. Introduction of wild caught colonies is also one of the reasons why others have RTN instantly as Alk/Salinity is very different, and its just not the conditions the coral came from, so they die.

 

[OUinLA]

Mike, my parameters are very close to Edwards but I have my ca a little lower. Actually, I just took my ca reactor offline because i'm about to switch tanks. I thought if I did that, it might be my butt in gear Hope I have time

 

[mojoreef]

invincible your levels look pretty close to balanced but are high in regards to calcium and magnesium. I see a couple things that are probibly putting uneeded stress on your corals, and maybe be adding to the overall stree your corals are getting with acclimating to a low nutrient system.

To a coral (lets work with SPS) calcium inhibits growth through cellular division. Basically the calcium will not allow for division, the corals cell has the ability however to overcome this by moving the calcium moles to the cell wall, the carbonate that is in the water outside of the cell then pulls the calcium out of the membrane and looks for a clean seed surface to deposit on, this of coarse in the corals skeliton. So in the chemistry world the alk is always the most important element in a corals eyes.
So let me relate that to your zeovit system. With out getting into all the concepts and additives I think we can safely say that the over all concept is low nutrients. Now the coral in a low nutrient system (after it survives the transision) is working on fumes,basically it is at a balance of zoox to coral and back, with a tiny bit of help from outside sources, but not much. Running your calcium level high like that makes the coral work harder to remove the calcium from its cellular network, In your case your cal is about 15% higher and the balance with alk is about the same, now you are also running your mag a tad higher which takes down the alk a bit more.
When you play in the low nutrient game (I have for decades) you really have to keep an eye on energy budgets of the corals as it does not have access to external nutrients if it cant get enough from the internals. Running elevated element levels will cause the coral to use up more energy to do that job, taking away from other important needs for that energy.
If you are running your tank at 1.025 I would suggest getting that calcium down to around 400 or slightly below, try to keep your alk at the same mark and let the mag run down a few points to 1200. This would be alot closer to NSW conditions with enough alk to help the coral get rid of the calcium, and reduce a hit on the corals over all energy budget and let it use that energy on more important things

anyway just a couple thoughts for ya.


Mike

 

[OUinLA]

Mike, how do you find this "balance" or know what it is. example, if I say ca is 410 what, in your opinion, is the appropriate alk? Or ca of 470, alk?

thanks

madison