Powder Blue Parasite, Help!

[Rea17]

Hey everyone. I got this gorgeous powder blue tang about 8 months ago from a fellow reefer. She was about 6 inches in length and very healthy. Her owner told me that while she was younger she had a pretty serious ich problem that was treated with copper. This is pretty normal for tangs, and I figured the copper would have killed anything on her. I made the rookie mistake of not qting her... terrible, I know. This fish fell ill after a night in my tank - I turned on the lights in the morning to find her covered in white spots. It was definitely not marine ich, the spots were bigger and elongated, sticking out a few millimeters. I was unable to determine exactly what the parasite was, I thought maybe some form of brookynella? I fed her as much as she would eat (nori, mysis, etc) and hoped that proper diet would help. It didn't. The following morning she had massive fin deterioration and was breathing heavily. I caught her and put her in a 75 gallon qt tank, dosed cupramine and hoped for the best. The fish pulled through... amazingly. After a treatment period with copper and prazi she was on the mend. I kept her in that qt tank until her fins were regenerated (mostly). Although none of my other fish were showing signs of stress or sickness, I removed them from the display and put them in separate qt tanks with treatment for 8 weeks. I hoped that the tank being empty for that period of time would eliminate any parasite that might be lurking in the rocks/sand. The 8 week timer was up a couple of weeks ago, I waited an extra week just to be safe, then I began adding fish. I phased them in 2 at a time, least aggressive -> most, over the span of two weeks. They went in with no sign of parasites, success! Sadly, this morning I woke up to find a couple (5 or so) of those same elongated spot parasites on the powder blue. She has been in the tank for a week. The powder blue does not receive any aggression from my other tangs, nor is she aggressive to them. I don't see stress as a factor here. I'm posting some pictures, and I apologize for poor quality, I just have my camera phone. If anyone has a suggestion or has any idea what this is, let me know. Also, if I posted in the wrong section I'm sorry:help:

Note: the main visible spot is behind her right gill cover. There are some on her dorsal fin and left side that aren't showing up well in pictures. She lives in an established 240 gallon tank with 6 other tangs. They all get along great, I included a photo with some other fish in it. Daily feedings of nori soaked in selcon, and mysis/brine a few times a week. Water parameters are perfect. All fish were drip acclimated back to the tank for 2-3 hours.

 

[NC2WA]

moving to Lee's forum for better responses..

 

[NC2WA]

Water parameters are perfect

Welcome to RF !!!

Can you post your water parameters? I know Lee will want it.

I can't see anything wrong with this fish...maybe a better photo??

so the powder blue has been in your tank for 8 months and this is the first time u have noticed anything??
do any other tangs or fish (please list) seem affected?

hopefully Lee can chime in with his thoughts, but I agree proper diagnosis is required, as if copper is the only thing that cures brooknelia..and can spread to other fish...

 

[Rea17]

Water Parameters:
Temp: 78 degrees (varies 1 degree or so throughout the day)
Salinity: 1.022
Nitrates: 0
Nitrites: 0
Ammonia: 0
Phosphates: 0
pH: 8.2
Ca: 440
Alk: 9dkh

Sorry I didn't specify. The fish has spent a lot of the time I have had it in qt. When I got it I tossed it in the tank, it fell ill so I caught it and kept it in qt for 8 weeks. I returned it to the tank and it got sick again, this time much worse. You can see the dorsal fin hasn't fully grown back yet, the parasite literally ate it away. I decided that whatever parasite it had was most likely resident in the tank so I removed all the fish, treated them, and let the tank sit with just coral/inverts for 9 weeks. I staggered the return of my tangs to the tank over a two week period, and the PBT was in the tank for a week before showing any symptoms again. Last time the fish contracted it overnight and it got really bad really fast, so I am worried. None of the other fish in the tank have shown, or are showing, any signs whatsoever. My current stock list includes a XL hippo tang, purple tang, chocolate tang, desjardini sailfin, smaller yellow tang, lieutenant tang, the PBT, a flame angel, and a mandarin. I added illustrations to make the pest easier to see. Also, I don't really believe it was brook. I can't really find any pictures online that look much like it, they are these little white things just hanging off the fish.

 

[NC2WA]

until Lee chimes in, keep up good water quality and good nutrition for the fish..

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/feeding-marine-fish-fish-nutrition-rev-1-a-27014/

 

[user 26995]

until Lee chimes in, keep up good water quality and good nutrition for the fish..

And include a really good vitamin in every feeding.

Hope all turns out well.
Welcome to RF.

 

[leebca]

Kind of frustrating to have such good photos show the proplem so inadequately. Tangs are not the easiest to photograph. . .I know. But the photo doesn't display the pathogen or condition very well. I will have to count on your effort to diagnose.

I'm in Berlin, Germany for work, so there is a significant time difference between us. However, I will be watching this thread closely.

Fish this size are almost strictly herbivores, so the feeding of macro algae is very important. Are you sure the feedings are 'enough?' I only ask because of what I read about your feedings, not because that would be the cause of the fish's current condition. Compare how you feed the macro algae to the recommendations given here and see if you are providing enough food for them: How to Feed Macro Algae to Marine Fishes.

Soaking macro algae in vitamin and/or fat supplements doesn't work too well. It floats off pretty quickly. With such a beautiful collection of Tangs, I'd invest/make the effort to prepare some homemade food where you can heavily dose the supplements.

I am stumped for a proper diagnosis. I could present a list of possibilities but that won't help when trying to find the cure.

Have all your Tangs been de-wormed? If not, do that now. DeWorming and Fishes with Intestinal Problems. Feed this and your other Tangs with the de-worming meds -- don't use the bath method.

Make an effort to take more and better photos. I need to see the 'white spots' up close and from different angles. In the meantime, you can make an effort to better describe them:
1. They are white, but ALL white, no clear area or off-color area per spot?
2. Size estimate.
3. Are they individual and separated?
4. They rise off the body -- you wrote a 'few millimeters' -- "few" is not helpful. Can you give me an actual number range?
5. See any filament or cotton appearance?
6. The riser parts are straight, curled, curved, or a mix?
7. Do they 'move around?' Change position? Come and go?
8. Any other symptoms or behavior displays the fish has? (e.g., flashing, lethargic, shy, breath rate over 100/minite, etc.)
9. Other than the Tangs, what other marine life is in this aquarium? Do you know what other marine life was in the aquarium that this fish came from?
10. What is the Magnesium level?
11. Why are there no nitrates and phosphates measured?
12. Just to verify that I understand properly: You have already treated the fish with copper, right? What medication did you use?
13. You have treated with "prazi?" Please tell how you did this. The more details the better, please. (E.g., what did you use, where did you acquire it, how did you use it, etc.).
14. Any other treatments?
15. You wrote, 'Covered in white spots.' Do you really mean this -- the fish was totally covered with these? What areas? What areas (if any) were free of spots and continue to be free of spots?
16. Any other things you can think of not covered in your posts or the above list that may have come to mind?

I'll keep working on this if you'll keep posting replies. Thanks.

 

[Rea17]

It really is frustrating trying to get a decent picture... I realize that with the mild nature of the parasite (at this time) it doesn't look too serious. If it progresses again I will probably be able to get better pictures of it. I feed my tangs 2 sheets of Ocean Nutrition Nori per day. It usually takes them about an hour to get to the base of the clip - which according to the article you linked is alright. They all eat about the same amount, no one is ever chased away from the food, etc.

1. Yes, completely white.
2. They vary in size. The spot where they are anchored to the body is 1-2 mm thick. They vary a lot in length also. The one behind the fish's gill cover is 5mm in length, while the ones that are much harder to photograph are 1-2.
3. Individual
4. See #2, or was the question in regards to the number of visible parasites on the fish? I have counted 5 so far.
5. No
6. This category also varies, the bigger thicker ones I have noticed curve a little bit. They always go in the same direction, towards the tail of the fish. I think that this might be due to the fact that the fish literally never stops moving, and the current is blowing them back? maybe not.
7. Once anchored, I never see them move. I haven't seen them come and go either.
8. The fish is not showing any abnormal behavior. Breathing is normal, she is eating normally (like a pig), no flashing, etc.
9. Other than tangs, I have a flame angel and a mandarin for fish. I have several shrimp and snails (cleaner shrimp, coral banded shrimp, peppermint shrimp, nassarius snails, stomatella snails, fancy nassarius snails, conches, clams, hard tube cocoa worms, SPS/LPS/soft corals, etc. The tank that she was in before had no machines hooked up to it other than a light. The sump was full of healthy macro and floss to serve as a mechanical filter. She lived with a very large unknown wrasse, a snowflake eel, a pair of ocellaris clowns, carpet anemone, etc.
10. I supplement magnesium and it stays around 1300 ppm
11. I use RO water and have never had issues with phosphates... and I skim like crazy and have a sump full of macro to keep my nitrates at untraceable amounts.
12. I used cupramine
13. I used Aquarium Solutions PraziPro that I purchased online at Foster & Smith (I don't have an LFS that carries anything useful). I followed the instructions. I used the product for 7 days, waited 5 days, and then did another treatment (as I was still seeing some minor symptoms) for 5 days. I did not use cupramine and PraziPro at the same time.
14. I did not use any other treatments. I saw the symptoms receding with what I was doing, and with an unsure diagnosis, I didn't want to stress the fish more by treating it more.
15. I meant this. The fish was covered. The more that were on her the more consistent their size, closer to 3-5 mm. They were all separate, and they covered the PBT's body, face, fins. They attacked the fins the hardest, as within 36 hours she had massive fin deterioration. It was really terrible to witness... I still feel really bad about it. Her tail and back half of the dorsal/anal fins were reduced to almost stubs. The pectoral fins were damaged but have grown back completely. I attached a photo of what the fish looked like as she was getting better. It really stuns me how quickly the infestation progressed.
16. Not really. I haven't turned my lights on yet, but from looking at the fish under moonlights I can't really see an increase in the # of spots. This is really strange to me, considering how it blew up last time. I will keep a very close eye on her. I haven't dewormed the fish... I read the article and didn't see any symptoms that match. I will look into the product anyway and try and get some. Thanks for all the help

 

[leebca]

Without any further evidence, I put this into the category of a worm-like parasite. That would be one of three possibles, since PraziPro had no effect. Either a) internal; b) external exposed; or c) external protected.

If you proceed to de-worm the fish by feeding the medication, that will deal with a).

The b) kind are killed off by either a FW bath; a Formalin bath; or in most cases, the use of both. Each is given every other day for a total of 4 treatments (although 5 is preferred). You do a FW bath and if you see anything in the bath water or note any (positive) change in the fish, continue on with both this and the Formalin treatment. If you don't see any effect at all, you then just continue on with the Formalin treatment.

Killing c) type parasites often kills the fish.

You have the choice of just doing a euthanasia if you don't want to risk this fish infecting others and think you can't do the treatments. Euthanasia Putting a Marine Fish Down.

For the FW bath, follow these guidelines except only dip the fish for 7-8 minutes total:
Fresh Water Fish Dip.

For the Formalin bath, follow these guidelines:
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/formalintreatmentmarinefishes38818/

After the first FW bath, check the bathwater carefully to see if you see if anything came off the fish. Also, inspect the fish closely. If you are sure nothing has come off the fish and the fish does NOT look any better, then continue on with the Formalin treatments and skip further FW baths. Do the Formalin treatment (one bath every other day) even if you think it's not working.

If you have questions, don't hesitate to ask!

 

[Rea17]

Thanks so much. The possibility of a worm-like organism has crossed my mind, but it is odd that it starts off small (like a normal ich spot) and then grows outward. I suppose the next step is to catch the fish... time to get out my trap! How contagious would b) or c) be? Should I be concerned about other healthy fish contracting the same illness? I read that some worms can host in snails if there are no fish present, could this have made my fallow period pointless? Thanks again for all the info

 

[Rea17]

Is this the correct deworming product? https://www.pondrx.com/products/16162.html
The main ingredient is praziquantel, but it is made for ponds

 

[Rea17]

New development... after a love affair with the cleaner shrimp, my PBT has no visible parasites on her. Should I plan to treat her anyway for unseen parasites? This fish normally avoids the shrimp, and it took about 20 minutes for him to dislodge all of the visible entities. I really appreciate all the responses on this. I will continue to update if her condition changes, or if she relapses again -_- Thanks Lee and everyone else

 

[NC2WA]

good news....to answer your question about prazipro...

this is what I use:

Aquarium Fish Medications: Aquarium Solutions PraziPro

as long the main ingredient is praziquantel you are OK.

 

[leebca]

Don't count on the cleaner fish or cleaner shrimp. They don't 'eat' these kinds of parasites at all. What is going on is that the protrusions are being removed, not the imbedded worm. As you have pointed out, they start as spots and grow. You are not seeing the parasite. Proceed with treatments.

You want to get Praziquantel inside the fish, so you want to lace its food with this. This doesn't work well with just feeding macro algae. It works well if you get a prepared gel food and push some of the powder into it so it goes down into the intestinal track of the fish. Follow the procedure here: DeWorming and Fishes with Intestinal Problems.

 

[Rea17]

NC2WA, so PraziPro can be used orally to take care of internal worms? That is the exact product I have, and it didn't work as a long term cure.

Lee, thanks for the sound advice. I know cleaners don't really do much, but it is nice to see the fish not looking any worse... I will continue with the deworming and hopefully that will take care of the problem. Thanks everyone!

 

[NC2WA]

I believe there is a disclaimer in fine print says do not use orally, but I use it as a bath treatment for 7 days for any new fish I get while they are in QT..

Lee can correct me if I am wrong, but if the poop is whitish in color then it means intenstial issue still.

 

[Rea17]

That's what I thought, which is why I was looking at the pond stuff on the site that Lee had linked. The fish is looking clear today and the poop isn't white at all. We'll see what happens in the next week - I have to wait on shipping for the praziquantel anyhow. Her behavior is really good, she is playing in the mp60 and eating boatloads. I don't want to have to catch the fish and put it through another treatment, I think the stress of that would just make it worse... plus the last treatment obviously didn't work. If I can get away with feeding her something safe in the DT that would be best

 

[leebca]

Not quite put accurately. The form PraziPro is in -- its claim to fame -- was killing off free-swimming worms in ponds. As an external med for internal worms, its usage is very weakened. I mean, if you have a tape worm (human for instance) you don't soak in a bath to get rid of it, you swallow a pill to kill the worm inside of you. Same with the intestinal worm infections of marine fishes. You want to get the praziquantel inside the fish, past the bladder that removes things from swallowed water, and past the intestinal chemicals that digest-ruin the med.

If the fish isn't eating, then do the bath treatment. But it is a far, far, second to 'swallowing' the medication in a 'shot' dose. There's no doubt that, if that intestinal worm shows its face outside the fish, the worm doesn't have a chance in the bath, but. . .they don't do that.

Also, marine fish intestinal disorders extend beyond just worms. Reading the post you'll find other intestinal problems that can be cured with other meds.

In a post above, it was mentioned that some worms do have a life outside the fish. Like the kind that use snails and other marine life forms. However, these we don't have to worry about because they don't live in the captive marine environment. There are some other worms that do spend time in the water to spread to other fishes, but in this case, this worm doesn't seem to need/want to do this (that is, the other fishes aren't showing they are infected). So the treatment is from the inside or a harsh external treatment.

 

[Rea17]

Alright, thanks for the clarification. The fish is eating very well so now it's just about finding the correct product for it to ingest.

 

[NC2WA]

Looks like I need re-read the post on worms and where to get prazequintal to ingest

Lee so the bath treatment I'm doing is worthless?