A Sediment substrate that works

[NaH2O]

Kyle, I don't want to take away from the integrity of this thread, but thought I'd address your question. Sand beds act as a sink, and they sink end products of reactions and detritus down through the bed. The problem with the closed system is we have a glass/acrylic bottom to the tank, so it ends there. With this system, we will be able to remove those end products, so they won't build up and travel back up the bed. Another difference with "natural reefs" is they have a hugely diverse detrivore population (plus the sheer number of detrivores) that will be hard to copy, so the processes in the wild blue mixed with tides, etc....make the closed system a very different ball of wax.

Here is a thread on filtration concepts, and I believe there is a good discussion on how DSBs function.
Let's Talk About ~Filtration Concepts~

 

[MikeS]

Why don't you just use a Sea Cucumber or two...They do the same thing and dig in the sand. Nature usual has the best solutions. In the wild blue there are no plenums so how does it happen in real out on a reef....getting rid of detrius and the like.

no plenum under the ocean reef....but the ocean reef is also not enclosed in a little glass box, either...

I think most will agree that what we are looking for here with this system is something that will help bypass some of the potential negative side effects that systems like DSBs can experience within the confines of an aquarium, and to an extent reduce the reefkeepers dependance on natural methods of nutrient export.

Sea cucumbers are pretty neat, but there are some cons to them as well...they are a bit too agressive on the sand IMO, they can get pretty big, and some can emit toxins. A temporary solution to a permanent problem as I see it.

Don't get me wrong...I'm as pro-natural method as they come...I've had a DSB in my tank for 3 1/2 years now...but if this system can give me a better substrate, I'm all for throwing a bit of technology at the problem

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

Why don't you just use a Sea Cucumber or two...They do the same thing and dig in the sand. Nature usual has the best solutions. In the wild blue there are no plenums so how does it happen in real out on a reef....getting rid of detrius and the like.

thiers no sand on the reef either, lol

Mike

 

[MikeS]

mojo is deep...:lol: he told me the same thing and I still have not figured out what he meant...:lol:

what did you think of my drawings on the plenum?

any more thoughts on a good grade of substrate to use?

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

just waiting on some data from the substriaht guy. I will post it asap.


Mike

 

[Katchupoy]

WOW, been out for several days and so many pages already... I think I missed a lot.... need to go back and read again.... this is way over me

 

[MikeS]

hey mojo...when you do come up with a substrate....

if you are interested you can send me a small ( 1lb ) sample of it, or tell me where I can get the same thing, and I would be more than happy to take it to the materials lab at work and run a fine seive gradation on it...that way we'd have exact data on the different particle sizes and proportions in the substrate....maybe that's nuking it out a bit, but that could maybe be handy information to have....

just a thought....

MikeS

PS any of you all for that matter...just send it to me....

 

[MikeS]

also nobody is bashing my plenum picture...either that means it is totally perfect or it is just too flawed to even mess with responding....:lol:

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

lol

 

[MikeS]

how goes the substrate search, mojo?

Mike

 

[Scooterman]

Algae, algae is the driving problem I see, it is evil, it thrives off of everything! How can this system prevent it, with so much room for phosphates to accumulate in the upper region. Small,fine & large rubble from my own experiences seem to house the algae regardless. Do we need an elaborated substrate or can it be a frontal design only, thus allowing for higher circulation in the back, under rocks etc? I have built a crude rack system for my tank, sorta like steps, rocks are arranged like on a stairway, I get high flow underneath & between the rocks but up front even with good flow, there is algae I'm dealing with, I know I've been slacking because of the whirl wind going on with me but that area up front shows up as problematic first. So my question again is, can this modified system work in this type manner, or does it need to cover the entire surface area to work, which then leads to my next question, rock placement on top of this surface?:exclaim:

 

[mojoreef]

Still waiting on both the substraight and the plenum mod. hopefully soon.

Scott I would say that the plenum needs to cover the vast majority of the surface on the botton. with gaps around the front for estetics. In the battle with the P cycle in the bed, also remember N is a biggie also for algae. Here is my thought process anyway. two real sources of P. One is the sand itself as it melts and the second is tied to detritus and organics and the critter that bind them.
Ok first the sand. Keeping the top layer aerobic will result in a higher PH, that should stop the dissovling of the sand anywhere close to the top layer, it just wont unbind, unless its released by bacteria.
The second is that we are reling on the natural process of a mud or lagoonal sediment system. In this system bacteria aare always the first to get the available food. What happens in nature is that the movement of bugs migrates the food into the bed and down further to other strains. in our tanks we can get the populations or the recruitement of these critters. The plenum concept here is to assit with that problem by mechanically drawing the material down into the bed, reducing the relience on critters we cant get. Not allowing the bed to clog or get over filled we are keeping the available nutrients lower in the bed and less accessable to algaes. This i think will aloow for a larger filtration capability of the system. or at least that is the thinking behind it.

On the rocks.they should be able to be place directly on top of the sand, but you could build racking to hold them off. Personally I dont know if thier is any net gain or loss by doing either.
On the rocks on top it creates a more compact sediment and does not allow for the kind of diffusion you would get if they werent thier but in the same case its not going to get the food input because thier is a rick on top of it.


Mike

 

[MikeS]

While we wait, I thought I might throw this out for discussion as well...

If this system does what it is supposed to do, would it work well remotely? ie. like in a sump...?

MikeS

 

[NaH2O]

Hmmm....It might, but what size would it need to be effective, or would it matter?

 

[Scooterman]

Ok, While we are waiting on substrate information I also want to throw in Circulation, seems Circulation is also very important, I can't ever seem to get enough, (without having the holes as in miss NaH2O's new tank) I like having water moving everywhere, around rock even more so, seems algae's have a difficult time dealing with currents, so somehow I'd like to see some ideas on Circulating this puppy. Hope I'm not jumping the gun too soon here!

 

[Scooterman]

Ok, While we are waiting on substrate information I also want to throw in Circulation, seems Circulation is also very important, I can't ever seem to get enough, (without having the holes as in miss NaH2O's new tank) I like having water moving everywhere, around rock even more so, seems algae's have a difficult time dealing with currents, so somehow I'd like to see some ideas on Circulating this puppy. Hope I'm not jumping the gun too soon here!

 

[MikeS]

I would say circulate the tank just as any normal reef tank.

I don't think you would want any circulation in the plenum itself. At first I kinda thought that maybe a bit of backflushing would be ok, but the more I think about it, the more I don't think it's a good idea to do so, unless the plenum is plugged up.

MikeS

 

[MikeS]

hmmmm......don't want to see this thread die....

maybe while we are waiting, we can discuss fabric barriers...

I'm still in favor of a fine nylon fabric (not mesh) and I think I have come up with a "test" to see how it may perform...

I'm going to get some fabric, and drape it over some elevated eggcrate in an old tank I have laying around. Then I'm going to go to the river and get the finest most nasty mud I can and put about 6 inches on top of it. I'm going to see how many times I can recycle water through it before it clogs....

Just a rough idea....

MikeS

 

[wrightme43]

It seems to me, if you want to remove the junk from the deep sand bed, you could simply get a piece of tubing, siphon the sand bed out in 1/4 sections to a tub, refill the tank with fresh salt water, stir the sand with a pwr head, filter the water with a canister filter and put it back in the tank. I have a deep sand bed directly on the bottom, and this is what I do. My pistol shrimp is constantly mixing the bed any way. I do 1/4 every other month. You will be amazed at the junk you can remove this way. and it seems to be minimally invasive, except for the spaghetti worms they hate it. I still have a ton of them though. No problems with algae, except calupaura I can get it almost all out 3 weeks later its back strong. I hope this doesnt violate the rules of this thread. It seemed to me you wanted the result of nutrient export with minium tank modification. This works for me. I hope it helps, then again now that I think about it you probley already thought of it.

 

[MikeS]

wrightme43...how old is your DSB and how long have you been using this method of "cleaning"?

It would seem to me that your method goes against most of the conventional wisdom of DSB keeping...such a method should be considerably disruptive to the anerobic "zone" of the DSB, in addition to having the potential of massive byproduct/buildup expulsion into the main tank from the remaining 3/4 DSB....

MikeS