A Sediment substrate that works

[MikeS]

mojo, NaH2O and others, I definately see the logic behind your thinking and agree with it. However, I'm still a bit concerned with some of the mechanical issues of doing it this way.

OK...worse case scenerio...organics partially clog up part of the coarser mesh. We draw water off the system. Flow through this area is resricted, and the draw compacts more material there. Eventually, this could lead to "dead" spots in the substrate where organics accumulate. In addition, increased diffusion in one area could have a negative effect on the anerobic zone.

I still think that the key to making this system work well will be equal diffusion through the entire substrate into the plenum, and as a "sand junkie", I'd trade letting the substrate reduce as much as possible for for good equal diffusion into the plenum...

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

Mike I think the one thing that you have to remember is that the suction of the lower zone is only going to happen ance every three months or so. So if water is going to diffuse in thier it would have to happen naturally and I dont think that is going to happen to much at all.


Mike

 

[MikeS]

ok.....hmmmm.....but what about sand and dust and other non-reducables clogging a coarser mesh?

MikeS

 

[Scooterman]

Then maybe a finer mesh layer just above the coarser mesh layer?

 

[mojoreef]

but what about sand and dust and other non-reducables clogging a coarser mesh?

Sand and dust will continue to melt until they are able to pass through the mesh.
Most all Non reducables are inherently very tiny and should pass with out problem.

Mike maybe we are on the same page and dont know it. What size mesh were you thinking??


MIke

 

[Scooterman]

Ok, looks like this topic has come a long way in designing, I was wondering if maybe we are ready for developmental test?
Would someone volunteer to actually build this system, post it for us to look at in the process of building, and see what problems we encounter and actually see it working? I'm thinking maybe a 10g or 20 set-up, to keep cost down, holes will need to be drilled so we will need a good DIY'er!

Is this ok?
Good Idea, bad, not ready by design yet?
Should I delete this post?

 

[mojoreef]

Scooter I have the unit being built right now, but its about a week away. I bought a 20 gallon tank and the unit is being built to fit it. So as soon as I get it will do what ever test folks want to do.


Mike

 

[RedEyeReef]

I can't wait to see the test results. Problem is, if this thing works I will HAVE to rip my reef apart and start over.

 

[mojoreef]

I actually feel pretty good about it, with the right choice for sediment and mesh I think this could be a good long term filter.


Mike

 

[Maxx]

I actually feel pretty good about it, with the right choice for sediment and mesh I think this could be a good long term filter.
Mike

WHAT??????? Mojo is thinking that substrate in an aquarium is a GOOD thing? Who are you, and what have you done w/ Mike????

Nick

 

[NaH2O]

LOL, Nick! Let's look back at the system.....this thing has Mojo all over it! Oh, and I interpreted that as the "system" could be a good thing as a whole....not necessarily the substrate. But I agree.....Mike discussing substrate in a tank he controls is a little suspect. Nick......your police training is showing through!!! lololol

 

[MikeS]

Sand and dust will continue to melt until they are able to pass through the mesh.
Most all Non reducables are inherently very tiny and should pass with out problem.

Mike maybe we are on the same page and dont know it. What size mesh were you thinking??


MIke

I'm still thinking fine mesh fabric (not sure of exact micron)....mainly because I believe that if the fabric is fine enough where the sand, dust, ect won't actually get "caught" in the fabric, it will still remain permeable to water even with a considerable amount of said particles resting on top of it.

BTW, I've got mojo locked up in my basement and I'm posting for him....I'll let him out as soon as everybody is a "sand junkie"

:lol: :lol:


MikeS

 

[Witfull]

BTW, I've got mojo locked up in my basement and I'm posting for him....I'll let him out as soon as everybody is a "sand junkie

MikeS

you gotta feed and clean up after him for a long time,,,,im bare bottom forever!

 

[MikeS]

yeah, that could be a problem....:lol:

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

LOL you guys are to funny. Dave I have my own little side project going based on the concept here but with out the sand bed, I also am not interested in a sand filtration system, but alot of folks want one, thus the effort.

Mike I think you are voiding the usefulness of the system. If you want to use a fine mesh that will not allow for the passing of end product, dust and so on you have created a clog point and it becomes a DSB like just dumping it in. I dont want the sand to be able to pass through it but dust, end product and unused organics should be able to pass through it so they can be removed on a set maintence schedule.


Mike

 

[MikeS]

Mike I think you are voiding the usefulness of the system. If you want to use a fine mesh that will not allow for the passing of end product, dust and so on you have created a clog point and it becomes a DSB like just dumping it in. I dont want the sand to be able to pass through it but dust, end product and unused organics should be able to pass through it so they can be removed on a set maintence schedule.

Personally, I think clog problems will arise when sand, dust, ect actually become trapped in the mesh itself. By my thinking, if the mesh/fabric is fine enough to prevent the large majority of particles from becoming entrapped in the mesh in the first place, it will still remain permeable to water into the plenum, and much more equally than a coarser mesh that may be patially blocked by particles.

Also, ( and I realize not everybody will be able to do this) I plan on drying back and removing the fine dust with a 200mU seive from the substrate I put on top of this, in order to make the substrate as dust free as possible to start with.

Admittedly, this comes as a trade-off of more removal of solids. However, (still looking at this from more of a DSB standpoint here, sorry) don't you think that the water diffusing into the plenum, even if it is void of larger particles of solid waste, will still contain enough waste and byproducts in saturation to make the system worthwhile?

MikeS

 

[NaH2O]

don't you think that the water diffusing into the plenum, even if it is void of larger particles of solid waste, will still contain enough waste and byproducts in saturation to make the system worthwhile?

Hmmm....wouldn't it depend on how long it takes to be broken down enough to make it into the space? If it takes too long, then you are stuck with the substrate backing up again.

I think clog problems will arise when sand, dust, ect actually become trapped in the mesh itself.

MikeS - what about the point that was made in regards to the pH melting the sand and eventually it will go thru?

 

[mojoreef]

Well we have to look at the inherent problems a dsb system has in the first place. One is accumulation and the other is a lack of ability to handle a decent bioload. .
Tell me what scares you about having some small organics getting sucked out??


Mike

 

[Maxx]

By my thinking, if the mesh/fabric is fine enough to prevent the large majority of particles from becoming entrapped in the mesh in the first place, it will still remain permeable to water into the plenum, and much more equally than a coarser mesh that may be patially blocked by particles.

I'm not following this here......
Your thinking is that smaller, finer material will prevent clogged substrate as opposed to larger and more coarse substrate? How do you figure that the larger and more coarse substrate will clog faster than a fine grained sand? If this were the case then sand filters for pools etc wouldnt really work.
Could you help me understand this Mike S?
Thanks,
Nick

 

[MikeS]

NaH2O....point well taken on both reguards...

Yes, it will take time to break these down in the substrate, but hopefully a reasonable "balance" can be achived, where enough saturated byproducts and wastes are being removed to still make the system effective. Short of removing all the organics from the substrate, reduction and buildup will occur at some level anyway. I guess the question is to what level we allow this to happen. I'm not saying my idea is the best one, I realize mine has more potential for byproduct/watse buildup in the substrate....but (and I apologize for continuing to look at this from a pro DSB standpoint) if this substrate system can have double or triple the lifespan compared to the DSB than it's worth it IMO.

As for the sand melting, yes it will....but that too will take time, and in the meantime, it could be plugging up the mesh screen.

Mojo....nothing at all scares me about having as much of the organics sucked out as possible. I agree with you that is the most ideal scenario. I'm still having issues with some of the mechanical problems that would be associated with the system in order to do this. I think that a system with a mesh coarse enough to let lots of solids pass will have more problems with clogging and unequal diffusion into the plenum.

Maxx...I'm referring to the mesh/fabric barrier, not the substrate grain size. I think a coarse mesh (larger openings) will be more prone to clogging than a fine mesh that does not allow particles to become entrapped in the first place.

I'm not arguing at all that letting the substrate reduce all the organic solids is a better method. Obviously, the more orgainics we can remove, the more efficiant this system will be. I'm just not convinced that a system that allows for diffusion of lots of solids into the plenum will be a mechanically sound one....I hope that made sense...

MikeS