A Sediment substrate that works

[wrightme43]

Mike it is two years old and I know it goes against conventions I decided to do six months ago when I got a pistol shrimp who totally rearanged the bed any way. I put a lot of deterius in the water and I figured it couldnt hurt. I could be dead wrong. though every thing is thriving as far as I can tell. I just had a quadricolor bud off new and no coral losses. Thanks for taking the time to respond, I am learning

 

[wrightme43]

Sorry I ment to say It (the pistol shrimp) put alot of deterius. My thinking behind it is that, if the shrimp can dig to the bottom of the tank and my yellow watchman goby can live with him almost 4 inchs under the sand it cant be to anarobic or anoxic. the sand I have is aragalive 4 bags I know it says 20lbs but I think part of that is water is why I only figure 60 lbs of sand.

 

[NaH2O]

Welcome wrightme43 (if I haven't done so already) to Reef Frontiers!!

The areas won't be anaerobic if they are getting stirred up by the goby and shrimp.

When you do your sand bed maintenance - how long does the process take? And maybe I missed it...do you drain all the water out when removing the sand? I would fear releasing some nasty byproducts into the water column when doing this if water is in the tank. Good thoughts, however, in prolonging the life of the sand bed.

 

[wrightme43]

Nikki I just do it as part of a partial water change. I was very scared the first time I did it myself. It seems to work. I dont put any of the dirty water back just cups full of sand that is still wet. It only takes about an hour for the cannister filter to clear it most of the way up. On the flip side I use a poly filter and chemipure in my emperor 280 so maybye I just absorb up all the bad I could be doing. Steve

 

[mojoreef]

Hey Wrightme43 welcome to Reef Frontiers. All opinions are welcome here so feel free to keep throughing them out.

Th method you are using to help your DSB with organics is the way quite a few folks do it, most of the folks tht have longer living dsb;s employ simular methods. Here are a couple of concerns however. As you have read and posted to in the nitrification/denitrification thread aerobic and anaerobic zones occur in a variety of areas and at a variety of depths. When you stir from the top down you run the risk of hitting areas (sulphide/methane) and so on that you really dont want to hit, yes you might get a bunch out but its impossible to get it all out. One of the reasons of this system is to accomplish the same thing but with less risk. Also one of the problems is the detritus and end product that occurs deeper and lower in the anaerobic zones, this stuff should also be removed but getting to it from the top down is vitrually impossible.
Good to see you onboard Steve.

On a side note I havent gotten the plenum back yet, so I agree lets get the baance of the pleumn together for right now until it comes in.



Mike

 

[wrightme43]

Thanks Mojoreef, After reading more I think I may of just been EXTRODINARLY lucky. I know methane and sulfer dioxide could wipe out my system. Like I said to Nikki sometimes my best thinking is the worst thing I can do. Thats why I wanted to join you all. Steve

 

[NaH2O]

Regarding the fabric barriers....what kind of diffusion rates would be most beneficial?

 

[MikeS]

I'd say the slower the better....to aid in uniform diffusion into the plenum.

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

What about solids??? are we going to allow for a size that is going to allow for migration of them??


Mike

 

[NaH2O]

Grrrr - wasn't thinking about the solids. Yes - solid removal, but the size of solids that make their way to the fabric would be dependent on the substrate size? Also, if some smaller solids are allowed to pass through - I'm concerned that larger pieces will get stuck and clog the barrier. I'm picturing my filter socks ....as they are used they start to collect junk and have to be rinsed off (they are a smaller micron). Would the draw be enough to free larger particles stuck on the topside of the fabric? Could be I'm thinking too deep.

 

[MikeS]

my vote is no on the solids passing the barrier, because of the clogging problem NaH2O reffered to....

MikeS

 

[Maxx]

Okay,
so now we're back to the problem of stuff getting stuck in the sand bed/substrate, and rotting.
Are we thinking about a system where the fine sand is above our plenum rinse/wash system, covered by a fine barrier, and then a layer of coaser substrate above that which can be siphoned via one of those gravel washers we all have?
Nick

 

[NaH2O]

I don't think this system is going to have two substrates, Nick. My arguement was the fine sand under the coarser material would start to melt and reduce in size...eventually we would have a problem.

 

[Witfull]

all this and we still have stuff rotting in the sand...lol

im thinking go old skool....plenum plate with a closed drilled through the bottom pulling everything down and through a oceanclear pleat filter the returned to the surface. a large grade subtraight to allow solids to be pulled in and removed. if i was to go with a subtraight agin this is what i would go with. active over passive, forcefully remove it, dont wait for rotting whatnots to decide its time it go.

 

[mojoreef]

Ok this is an important choice here. Thier are a couple of choices we could take that would lead us down different paths.
Nikki in regards to the organics clogging the barrier I dont think that will come into play. Whatever organics that may get caught up in the fabric will be subjected to reduction, and thier for will not clog for long.
Mike I think pretty much whatever micron size we use it going to slow the diffision down and make the lower region anaerobic. here are a couple of things to wonder about.

>If we go with an filter size that will allow small organics to pass through it will take pressure off and increase the bioload capabilities of this system.
>If the micron size is large enough for the above it will allow for more organics and related material to be sucked out when the draining occurs.
>If the micron size is to small it will not allow for any organics to pass through. Also what really worries me is particulate dust, as in argonite. this stuff would block the screening for sure.

anyway thier are a couple of concepts.


Mike

 

[Scooterman]

How about two layers of micron screens?

 

[MikeS]

I think if the mesh was fine enough, the dust would not clog it, it would still remain permeable. (haven't done my river mud test yet...)

I guess the real question is wether to try to remove the organics, or to let them be reduced in the substrate and then remove some of the (hopefully) byproduct saturated water....

MikeS

 

[Scooterman]

Well MikeS, we would have that drain at the bottom to flush the thing, I wonder how much can we pull down to that area & if we need a fine mesh, I'm thinking the concept here is to eventually remove what isn't processed, or did we change that? Excuse me, I tried to stay with it but was gone so much lately, I may of missed something.

 

[NaH2O]

I think we should allow for organics to be sucked out. The system is designed to handle it, and they won't be sitting there waiting to be broken down....flush the toilet so it won't back up

 

[mojoreef]

Mike I am leaning the removal way also. When we perform the suction on this plenum we are going to naturally suck organics that are high in the bed down to at least the mesh of the screen, if we allow for it to be removed we are basically helping the dsb with what is always an over load of organics. All this can do is to help the Sand filtraion system handle more bioload which s a good thing. Is it that important to compost every last bit of organics???? I think a little help from above can only benefit the system.


Mike