Better flow: Closed loop or power heads?

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On the collision, that is how I ran my tunze streams. One on either end on the tank, both pointing at the same point on the front of the tank dead center where the flow met. I had a sea swirl there as well to add into the mix. I guess it's all how you want to go about it. Tank size as mentioned plays a major deciding factor and heat, well that's another thing. A lot of people that are running closed loops run heaters so they don't always add significant heat. You will usually hear chillers being associated with lighting specifically halides so the heat issue you are talking about isn't as significant as you mentioned in many cases due to cl pumps. :)

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Yea I dont know Seth. I run amp master 3000's on mine and they only use 1 amp of power and they put out 3500 gph at the output. So I dont think they are going to jack up our electric bill to much more then the VT PH. Also they put out no heat so no complaint there.

When ou set up a tank and put rock in it no matter what pump you use you will have dead spots. With a PH all the flow is coming in one ay and then bouncing off the back. Now no dought these VT ph's put the flow out but their is no way you can get anywhere close to covering all the areas in, around or behind te rock work with one or two PH's coming in from opposite sides. With a closed loop you can design where the outputs come into the tank and then set up a system to eliminate the dead spots and thus keep the detritus from building up. SO kind of outputs at what would be standard dead areas (behind rocks, between them, sprying down on them and so on, ten have some as sweepers to take what been blown into the water column and direct it towards the overflows for removal.

Mike
 
Yeah I think there is no true answer here. It will all depend on your tank, your corals, and most importantly your wallet.

As far as the heat halides are the biggest criminals to blame for sure, but there is no denying that a 1-1.5hp pump which is about what it would take to match one MP40 is going to add some significant heat and electrical consumption.
 
Yea I dont know Seth. I run amp master 3000's on mine and they only use 1 amp of power and they put out 3500 gph at the output. So I dont think they are going to jack up our electric bill to much more then the VT PH. Also they put out no heat so no complaint there.

When ou set up a tank and put rock in it no matter what pump you use you will have dead spots. With a PH all the flow is coming in one ay and then bouncing off the back. Now no dought these VT ph's put the flow out but their is no way you can get anywhere close to covering all the areas in, around or behind te rock work with one or two PH's coming in from opposite sides. With a closed loop you can design where the outputs come into the tank and then set up a system to eliminate the dead spots and thus keep the detritus from building up. SO kind of outputs at what would be standard dead areas (behind rocks, between them, sprying down on them and so on, ten have some as sweepers to take what been blown into the water column and direct it towards the overflows for removal.

Mike

I have 2 vortech MP40's on my 75 peninsula both on the back wall under my overflow box in anti-sync reef crest and I have no noticeable dead spots in the tank. I know cause I did the old flake test lol.

I;m not arguing the versatility of the loc line outputs. I love them too. Just saying there is other alternatives out there that don't require large pumps.

Edit- Side note 2 MP40wES pumps running both wide open in constant flow would consume a total of 56 watts 28 each. That's 6400 GPH with no heat in the tank at all.
 
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Here's something that might make you happy for once in your life Seth...Well maybe for a second ;)

I had a 75 gal, dual 250w MH's, 2 tunze streams, one return pump and one mag drive for the over the top closed loop.

and then I switched to...

A 38 gal, single 250w MH, no power heads, single return and 2 Quiet One pumps to run 2 seperate closed loops and on the 38 gal, the chiller cut in more which was the same chiller used on the 75gal. I thought it may be because I used a total of 6 fans on my 75 gal along with the chiller and if I remember correctly only one fan on the 38 gal, but it wasn't until I disconnected the closed loop pumps to clean them that I realized where the heat was coming from. I used true union ball valves so I closed both valves before disconnecting them. When I released the valves over the sink to let out the water, the water was hot enough to scold my skin! They were the worst pumps I had ever seen to produce heat!!! :eek:. Nevertheless, none of my tanks could compare to this one with flow. I mean I had 9 seperate nozzles (8 for closed loop and 1 for return) that I could tweak my flow to perfection. A water change just meant swapping water. Nothing to siphon up because nothing settled in the tank. You can see pics of the 38 gal and the 75 gal if you back track this thread a bit so some closed loop pumps can cause alot of heat, but not all do. You just have to choose the right pump to use that's all. :)
 
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Wow, just catching up and I must say I've leaned more about flow in this thread than any other I've read. :) Frankie is lending me his amp master to use so I want to make a CL for my 180 and see how it goes. If it works out well, then I'll find one of my own pump. I would love to borrow 2 MP40s or MP60s and put them in my tank just for comparisons (really don't see that happening). Same tank, same rock work, and see what happens. I just added 2 more Koralia Evolution 1400s to the 180 this morning and have their stream bouncing of the front and back of the tank. I'll have to do the "flake test" and look for any changes. So now, I have 5 PH in the tank and they are starting to become distracting. My wife would like an anemone at some point and I know nems and PHs don't always get along. Tomorrow's chat's going to be fun. :D
 
Hey I got to push it off until 5:30 eastren time. Hope that doesnt screw to much up.

Mike
 
I have 2 vortech MP40's on my 75 peninsula both on the back wall under my overflow box in anti-sync reef crest and I have no noticeable dead spots in the tank. I know cause I did the old flake test lol.

I;m not arguing the versatility of the loc line outputs. I love them too. Just saying there is other alternatives out there that don't require large pumps.

Edit- Side note 2 MP40wES pumps running both wide open in constant flow would consume a total of 56 watts 28 each. That's 6400 GPH with no heat in the tank at all.

I find these sort of statements misleading, one you have to do a complete test on tank temps. before and after making sure everything is exactly the same, including room temps, lights, circulation pumps etc. but I do agree these are probably the least heat inductive PH's they make, any difference would be tiny.
If you have a tank full of rock, no way are you going to have 100% no dead spots, it just doesn't make sense to say that even, you may get flakes all over the place but eventually it will settle and most logically not in view, more like within the rock work itself, under the rocks etc. It will accumulate.
As with anything there is always a trade off, It depends on which you prefer.
 
Hey Mike,

Thanks for sending your drawing for the cl and for getting on chat to explain it. I really appreciate it. I'm going to start figuring out the measurements so I know how much acrylic I need to get and then put Frankie to work teaching me how to work with acrylic. :D Once it's done, I think its going to be pretty cool. Thanks.

Chris
 
It's gonna be awesome Chris. I talked with Mike last night after I finally woke up ;) and it looks like 3/8" is the thickness. I need 1/2" material, so maybe we can order together and save on shipping a bit? Let me know when you want to order the materials and well get this puppy going. I have the glues already and tools. All we need is the acrylic.

Thanks for taking your time out to help Chris last night Mike! :)

Frank
 
I wanted to pop in as well, but my back acted up from something I did yesterday causing a bit of nerve pain and so the medicine I took for it, well put it like this, I had to log out of RF before I posted something more stupid than I usually do :lol:


(1)
 
I wanted to pop in as well, but my back acted up from something I did yesterday causing a bit of nerve pain and so the medicine I took for it, well put it like this, I had to log out of RF before I posted something more stupid than I usually do :lol:


(1)

You need a good Chiropractor. :D I know one. LOL.
 
Rhodes19,

I prefer to run powerheads for all the reasons Skimmy mentioned in the beginning of this thread, and for a few others.

I currently run a 120 BB tank with four Tunze 6105's in it. I run a gyre style pattern, (two Streams on blowing one way, then two Streams on blowing the other way…IE All Streams are located in the upper corners of the tank. Front right and back left run at same time pushing water clockwise. Then front left and back right kick on pushing water counter clockwise) that also alternates between full on, and 65% power.

I used to run a 58 gallon BB tank with a closed loop. An Iwaki 55 RLT pushed about 1100 gph through an OM 4 way unit and down through 4 outlets that each split into two, (8 outlets total).

My design of the closed loop and choice of pump added significantly to my electrical useage, and to the temp of the tank. Because of the heat, I had to run a chiller, (even in the basement of my home). Because I had to use a chiller, my tank used more than 10 amps of electricity, (it was 10 just with the closed loop and the chiller alone. Never mind the lights or anything else.

I now use significantly less electricity to run the 120, and don’t require a chiller anymore. Tank is still in the basement.

The main reasons I chose to go with the Tunze Streams were the lower electricity usage per pump and the modularity of the set up.

Less electricity used meant less heat getting to the tank, and lower operating costs. The modularity was important because if I ever lost a Stream due malfunction/breakage etc, I wanted to be able to just send the damaged/non working one back and still not have any issues with the system working. With those goals in mind I have been much more successful with this system than I was with the 58 gallon system.

Whatever route you choose, I would strongly caution you to think worst case scenario when setting up your system. What can go wrong and how rapidly and easily can you fix it.

If you’re going closed loop, what happens when your CL pump dies? Do you have a spare? How hard is it to get to the CL pump and replace it? What randomizes your CL flow, (motorized ball valve, Oceans Motions Unit etc) and what happens if that dies on you? Do you have a spare? Can you quickly and easily replace the faulty part? Does it require maintenance? Can you quickly and easily reach the part for the scheduled maintenance? If not, you wont be doing it often.

Plumbing:
Are you prepared for a crack in the plumbing? What happens if your CL intake gets clogged. How easy is it to get to for cleaning?

All of these questions apply for the powerhead side of things as well.

As far as the anemone goes….

I have two Ritteri anemones. I’ve had one for 5.5 years, and the other for not quite a year. Both are in tanks with Tunze Streams providing flow. My advice on keeping anemones with power heads is this:

If you’re determined to have an anemone, decide which species you want, and design an environment for it. Anemones wander because they are looking for their ideal conditions. Provide them with ideal conditions, and they wont wander.

Hope that helps or at the very least, makes you ask yourself some questions and think about what could go wrong, before it does.

Nick
 
Hi Nick,

Thanks for your post and for sharing your experiences. That is definitely a lot to think about. I don't have any experiences with Tunze PH but I've read some nice things about them. There are a variety of pros and cons for both systems, I just need to decide which would be the best setup for my tank. :)
 
the calcium comment was an observation on SPS systems with calcium reactors doing contant drips to maintain alot of growth from large colonies... the build up would eventually flake off and collect at the gate valves in the closed loop, and you would have to dis-assemble to remove.
Not sure I understand why one would have gate valves in a closed-loop system.

My recommendation is to design for easiest maintenance. Oversized piping and accessable external pumps are one solution. After all, the goal is flow volume, not necessarily flow velocity at the outlet.
 

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