In Wall - going for it! - seeking your ideas/feedback/advice

[trido]

How about you get a reputable contractor to find some nice 4x10s for your stand? If I can put a hot tub on it two stories in the air and feel as if 30 people were standing near it and it wouldnt collapse I think that wood will be plenty strong. JMO Heck, its only 1872lbs. of water. I will bring my portfolio next time I come over.

 

[Scooterman]

Ben, the more I see this thread, the more I realize your project is very aggressive, above all please take your time in design, this is a lot of stuff to consider. I would focus on the first few things that can & will be problematic. First design how you will mount this tank, wood, bricks or even a steel frame wrapped in wood, & if your worried about tipping over during a quake you need to consider attaching this to a wall that is attached to the floor & foundation, or somehow attach the stand to the foundation this is a lot to factor because even with 2k lbs of weight it can tip over if this is a concern your planning for. While designing this you will run into plumbing issues due to room, & as mentioned your plumbing is also very aggressive. you will need to plan room for all that, pumps, valves etc. consider the diameter PVC your using also because over 1" it starts getting big. You could do a header which would provide water to multiple outlets, with one valve which would reduce your plumbing by three almost.
Just a few thoughts, opinions etc LOL!

 

[trido]

How about you get a reputable contractor to find some nice 4x10s for your stand? If I can put a hot tub on it two stories in the air and feel as if 30 people were standing near it and it wouldnt collapse I think that wood will be plenty strong. JMO Heck, its only 1872lbs. of water. I will bring my portfolio next time I come over.

EDIT:
It was way past bed time when I wrote this. Let me start over.
Concrete block will be time consuming and problematic for a stand. First the garage is out of level so that water brought in from the cars will drain out. You will have to level the first course of block and then keep the mortar wet enough to continue setting them until the desired level is reached. Second, IMO concrete work sucks. Third, it will be difficult to attach it to the existing house. Fourth, with block you will likely have to cut every block in the last course to acheive the desired height. Fifth, the two sides will be closed making it difficult to run plumbing. I used to work for a masonry company. I could go on if you like.

With wood your stand will go quickly with less mess and still be plenty strong.
If you (we) use four 4' sections of 4x10s set perpendicular from each other with two layers of 3/4" CDX ply wood as a deck there will be absolutly no saging from the plexiglass. We will then use four 4x6 posts as the legs on the outside corners. If you like, for extra assurance I can rotohammer and epoxy metal post bases into the floor. We are building this into a 2x6 load bearing shear wall. This will keep the front the tank from ever moving from side to side. The plywood deck will keep it from twisting and we can use some large triangular gussets for the back corners for extra measure. Add a few metal hangers and bracket and that stand will be plenty strong I assure you. I am personally more concerned about the house iteslf. Im not good with the putting 3-D stuff on the computer so you will just have to trust that I have this aspect of your tank build completely under control and you can worry about all of the other details.

 

[rocket]

Assuming your total is 2,000lbs and a tank size of 4'-0'x4'-0" with the frame sitting on a slab on grade. I talked to one of our structural engineers here, and we both think that you can frame this out of 2x lumber no problem. Just use 2x8s and 3/4" sheathing to frame the "floor" (with one joist with hangers, centerspan) and (4) 4x4 posts notched at the top to carry your floor. Then use 1x to wrap the posts at the base. And you wouldn't need to worry about earthquake design with something this small and sitting on a slab. With that built you could drive and park your car on it. Just and idea...

Thinking about this more, I wanted to make sure I mention that this design works only if you are supporting the perimeter of the tank, you need 2x members under the perimeter edge. I can draw something up for you. You might also add diagonal braces to support the posts and you could use clips to attach the frame to the studs of the your garage wall for earthquake peace of mind.

 

[class clown]

Stand update: Concrete out! Wood is in!

Duane - I appreciate your thoughtful explanation and advice. much appreciated. let's try to get together soon and sketch it out -will work out offline, but that tricolor with your name on it is waiting for you (taunt, taunt). After that, I can give another lame attempt to draw it out digitally so other folks can see.

Rocket - I also appreciate your thoughts. The stand is going to be pretty high off of the ground. Higher than you'd typically see b/c it'll be resting on the concrete pad in the garage which is a good 2-3' lower than the rest of the house. I'd have to go home to measure it out to get the exact length of the legs, but I know from the inside of the house, I'd like the bottom of the tank to be at about 42" off the ground, which means the legs of the stand in the garage will be an additional 24"-36" higher than that, or 66" to 78" tall. Still think I'd be ok w/ 2 x 8 legs? what about just going for some big boy 4 x 6's and then using 2x8's for the joists w/ hangers?





Would

 

[class clown]

Ben,

I'm counting 12 closed loop return bulkheads in the bottom of the tank. That seems like a lot of diffeerent return points for a tank the size you are planning. Can it be done with less? I'm assuming each one of those return lines will have a valve to control flow. What happens if the seal wears on one of those valves and it starts to leak. Then you are back to Marks point...the whole tank has too be drained to fix it. In my experiences unions and valves eventually need repair or replacement. We have inherited maintenance accounts over the years with closed loops returned through the bottom and have had issues with plumbing repair on most of them. With 12 return lines your chances of valve, union, or bulkhead leaks increases. Also, I wouldn't go over 24" high if you return through the bottom. Can you imagine trying to reach the bottom of a 30"+ tank to scrape bryopsis off of loc line knuckles?!?!? I've had too do it...it sucks! I would think you could reduce your chance of problems by 50% by simply using one return bulkhead in each of the 4 corners and then 2 more in your canyon. All of these could be "y'd". Any other return outlets could be plumbed in as Mark suggested higher up on the back wall. Just some ideas and in no way meant to suggest your plan isn't feasable.

Thanks Cy. man.. I think I'm having deja vu - you and Mark (skimmerwhisper) have really cautioned me about the through the bottom plumbing. Maybe I should listen ehh? Last thing i want to do is to have to drain the tank if there was a problem. yikes - what a pain.

In the present design, there are 10 outlets through the bottom for the CL outputs. The other 2 in front I was planning to do an over the top b/c i didn't want to see the bulkheads at the front of the viewing window. Drains are in the back.

4 corners and in the middle sounds like a good comprimise. there comes a point when practicality has to overrule aesthetics. This sounds like it may have to be another one of those points. I might even be ok just doing over the top corners which would mean only through the bottom center.

so Question: have you seen problems even w/ the schedule 80 bulkheads? are there a certain type of ball valve that you've had tremendous luck with in avoiding failures? if yes, it'd be worth it for me to invest in those. Also, are there any types/brands of bulkheads/ball valves that you've seen fail time and time again? I'd want to stay away from that type.

 

[class clown]

If the look of loclines at the surface doesnt appeal to you I know of a little trick some of the national aquariums do to hide theirs. We can use my wifes paper cutter.:badgrin:

curiousity is piqued

You're not going all McGiver on me now are you?

 

[rocket]

6' 4x4 posts will be no problem, but you'll need bracing, either diagonal braces or clipping off to a stud wall or sheathing wrapping the frame. I would do a combination of clipping to a wall and diagonal bracing between the posts. a little overkill never hurts! Are you going to be building this? Good workmanship is important for a good foundation to your tank!

 

[class clown]

6' 4x4 posts will be no problem, but you'll need bracing, either diagonal braces or clipping off to a stud wall or sheathing wrapping the frame. I would do a combination of clipping to a wall and diagonal bracing between the posts. a little overkill never hurts! Are you going to be building this? Good workmanship is important for a good foundation to your tank!

oh good news about the 4 x 4s. yep.. I hope to have Duane's help doing it, but it will be homemade. I imaging we'll be anchoring it to the wall for sure. Also probably also some cross bracing on the top & bottom.

 

[class clown]

So thought it might be valuable for anyone just catching up to the thread or following to provide a recap of where we're at so far....

TOTAL THREAD RECAP

here's a recap of what's "solidified" (I use the term loosely):

• Tank size (see link): 4X4X2 Acrylic w/ continuous overflow -Jason @ CFI (although 4x3x2 wouldnt' be bad either)
• Lighting (see link): Iron L bend light rack housing 2 LIII's & 4 65w PCs or 4 T5s( if I can find it for a decent price)
• Trim on the inside of the house to frame the viewing window w/ hidden front access panel (see link)- concept in mind w/ hidden front access -similar to Servo's
• rockscaping (see link)- channel down the middle, 2 islands on the sides.
• Skimmer is solidified (see link)- AE400
• CL pump (see link)- Reeflo Hammerhead - found one for $200 used
• Calc reactor - utilize existing GEO (rated 300g)
• Return pump - utilize existing Iwaki 40RLT (750gph)

Where are we going w/ this thread?

• Here's what's still needs to be decided:
• Stand design - we're discussing now
• Flow design - we're discussing now
• Plumbing parts - will follow the flow design once solidified
• Sump/fuge design - one yet to tackle (will get to later down the road)
• Chiller - yet another yet to tackle (will get to later down the road)
• Automated Maintanence (Water changes) -another yet to tackle later
• Electrical - another yet to tackle later

At Scooty's recomendation, let's concentrate on flow design, stand design, and sump/fuge design primarily until ready to move onto the other topics. I appreciate all of your help/advice/input/and words of wisdom and for sticking by me through the planning phase here.

I know planning is not as fun as seeing it built, but as I learned from my current tank, it's important.

 

[jezzeaepi]

I would seriously consider some sort of automatic backup power, atleast for your closed loop. Loosing circulation in a tank that size could be disastrous very quickly. I know you work at home, but these things have a way of happening only when you are gone.

 

[class clown]

I would seriously consider some sort of automatic backup power, atleast for your closed loop. Loosing circulation in a tank that size could be disastrous very quickly. I know you work at home, but these things have a way of happening only when you are gone.

Thanks Jesse - I have a nice 5500w generator (gas/portable/pull start) that I aquired at the last round of power outages. My ACIII should e-mail me when power goes out assuming I get a UPS so I should be covered on that front. I've trained my neighbor on how to start it up and plug it in in case I'm out of town. I'm thinking 30 min max w/ out power i'd ever go. It would be nice to have a plug so I could input it into my circuit breaker. Last time I checked, I think those were about $150.

Hey.. read my last note though.. let's knock CL, stand, and sump out of the park and then we'll move onto electricity next :lol: :razz: :lol: :razz: Just flippin ya crap

 

[barrierreefcf]

Schedule 80's are nice because you can really crank them down. We also use liberal amounts of silicone lapped around the gasket on the face that pushes down against the inside of the tank. It then oozes when you tighten things down and if nothing else help secure the nut a little bit. I wouldn't be as concerned about the bulkheads as I would unions or ball valves. I can't make specific brand reccomendations but I can tell you what we've encountered.

1. The more times you adjust a ball valve the looser the seal becomes. Also, if its been in one position for a few years the seal seems to take on that shape and if you decide to make a change in its position the seals sometimes don't work in the new position.
2. With unions what fails or needs to be replaced is the O-ring. Simple enough, provided you have access to the right sized O-ring and have a ball valve between the tank and said union. We have inherited jobs where whoever plumbed the tank used a combination union/ball valve (I think they are called true union ball valves) which is great but its something that is often purchased through mail order. When we tried to match its O-ring at Home Depot or Lowes we had no luck.

I'd suggest that you use whatever you can buy at Home Depot or Lowe's, as far as unions and ball valves go, and then get a few extra O-rings for the unions. Sometimes they change PVC brands down the road and their new parts don't match up. If you can't find extra O-rings buy a few extra unions because you can always steal the O-ring from them and use them as replacements. We have had good success with parts from either place.

Plan your union/ball valve placement carefully so that you can make as many repairs or changes as needed in the future. I realize this whole subject is kinda nit-picky and that plumbing shouldn't leak if done right. You'd hate to be kicking yourself 3-5 years from now though.

 

[rocket]

Here is a quick sketch of what I'm talking about. Oh by the way, I didn't draw the sheathing for clarity.

 

[class clown]

Oh man rocket - way to hook a brotha up. That is it!

I may do two joists in the middle w/ joist hangers for extra support (depends on plumbing), but that is what I'm talking about! Thank you!

Pink things are just standard lag bolts, right?

 

[rocket]

Thanks! I'm glad I could hep out. Yeah the pink things are lag bolts, but I drew thru bolts on the top of the posts. If you want it super rigid you could sheath the two sides instead of diagonal bracing. But you may want more open access to the side for plumbing. Two joists with hangers would work good too!

 

[Scooterman]

Where are we going w/ this thread?

• Here's what's still needs to be decided:
• Stand design - we're discussing now
• Flow design - we're discussing now
• Plumbing parts - will follow the flow design once solidified
• Sump/fuge design - one yet to tackle (will get to later down the road)
• Chiller - yet another yet to tackle (will get to later down the road)
• Automated Maintanence (Water changes) -another yet to tackle later
• Electrical - another yet to tackle later

stand= needs a solid design, as much room as you can afford.
flow needed to know how much room this will take & design around it.

plumbing=how will this all be connected, sizing, parts=$$$

electrical=better put this in place even before/during, putting the stand in place because you will wish you had it done first, make sure you can supply power to all the cables/pumps/lights/chiller everything, this won't be cheap either, get it done & do it right, sleep a little better.

sump=after you get all that under your stand, this has to fit somewhere & you have to get your drains to it & skimmer if you gravity feed it. Then return plumbing & pumps to locate.

Chiller=plan for it, where will it be located, lines going to it, air space & access for cleaning but you can't size it properly until you get everything running under normal operation & the hottest day to know how much pulldown you need for however much gallons you actually have to cool.

JMO again.

 

[NC2WA]

Ben,

Did you consider a steel stand? If so, what is preventing you from choosing a steel stand? This seems like a better option to hold the large water volume your tank is going to have.

Just curious.
Kirk

 

[class clown]

Ben,

Did you consider a steel stand? If so, what is preventing you from choosing a steel stand? This seems like a better option to hold the large water volume your tank is going to have.

Just curious.
Kirk

Thought about it briefly. I'd love to take a welding class, but also don't trust myself enough with all of that water on top to construct it so it would be sturdy enough. I built a deck last summer and am pretty happy with the way that turned so am more confident with my wood working abilities. I could always see if I could have it built for me (i.e Jason), but a lot of the fun in this (for me) is having the hands on experience of doing it myself. I'm a tinkerer. I love projects. I like the hands on approach and building things. So I'd miss that satisfaction if I went the steel route. That's really the main driver.

cost of course is an issue too, but really it's what I explained above.

 

[trido]

Automated Maintanence (Water changes) -another yet to tackle later

I was using with 4" pipe at work today and my hands are black from ABS glue despite my wearing gloves. We might as well cut into that 4" drain pipe that is preventing you from going wider that 48" and tap the tank directly into it. A quick turn of a ball valve and a simutanious flip of a pump switch and your doing instant water changes. I sure like mine that way.