Let's talk about Bacteria in a Bottle

[Scooterman]

Sounds like you have the potential for ammonia, just your not at that stage yet to show it, like I said you have a large volume of water so that skews the results and I bet none of your fish are fully mature in size so it would make it easier to get the results your getting. Anyways keep it going and post your results!

 

[Krish]

I'm basically on the same page as Don. I would like to try base rock once just to avoid some of the nasty pests you get as hitchhikers and seed it, but then I think about all the good stuff you do get as well which kinda weighs out the bad. I'm very patient when it comes to this hobby so running a tank without much livestock for a year or more if it is the case doesn't bother me. I like the idea of letting the rock do it's thing on it's own and once the tank has got to zero ammonia and nitrite and remains there, then I will begin to add in some livestock slowly (one fish at a time) to add a food source for the bacteria. I let that run for a bit until things balance out again and then add another one and so on. It isn't until read zero nitrates and it remains that way for awhile that I add in my first coral. The first time I added corals it wasn't until then. Not even 1 ppm of nitrates. It has to be zero for me as that is when I consider my tank matured and fully cycled.

With that said, many people do things differently and have success. This is the route I choose to take that has never done me wrong so I stick with that.

 

[kpiotrowski]

Sounds like you have the potential for ammonia, just your not at that stage yet to show it, like I said you have a large volume of water so that skews the results and I bet none of your fish are fully mature in size so it would make it easier to get the results your getting. Anyways keep it going and post your results!

yeah this is a big scarry fact. yes fish are not mature but the dry rock has tons of dead critters inside it ( large pukani) and the breakdown of them built .5 ammonia in just 3 days and thats when I added the bottle. so the unkown in that regard is how much food for the nitrogen cycle has the dead critters provided and how much will it continue....and when will it end? I can imagine that the large amount of pukani dry rock with dead stuff will be breaking down for a long time....year or more? does that sound right?

 

[kpiotrowski]

I'm basically on the same page as Don. I would like to try base rock once just to avoid some of the nasty pests you get as hitchhikers and seed it, but then I think about all the good stuff you do get as well which kinda weighs out the bad. I'm very patient when it comes to this hobby so running a tank without much livestock for a year or more if it is the case doesn't bother me. I like the idea of letting the rock do it's thing on it's own and once the tank has got to zero ammonia and nitrite and remains there, then I will begin to add in some livestock slowly (one fish at a time) to add a food source for the bacteria. I let that run for a bit until things balance out again and then add another one and so on. It isn't until read zero nitrates and it remains that way for awhile that I add in my first coral. The first time I added corals it wasn't until then. Not even 1 ppm of nitrates. It has to be zero for me as that is when I consider my tank matured and fully cycled.

Can't argue with that..but do have different approach in that while you are talking about having a very small bioload and waiting for the tank to fully cycle, I am shooting for more of a "medium" bioload and now am waiting for a full cycle .not shooting for zero nitrate before any more additions...just a significant and consisntant drop. surely I'll take zero nitrate but I may have to go through the "moron" cycle (lol)before I get there...and as you say this could take a year or more!
.

 

[Scooterman]

yeah this is a big scarry fact. yes fish are not mature but the dry rock has tons of dead critters inside it ( large pukani) and the breakdown of them built .5 ammonia in just 3 days and thats when I added the bottle. so the unkown in that regard is how much food for the nitrogen cycle has the dead critters provided and how much will it continue....and when will it end? I can imagine that the large amount of pukani dry rock with dead stuff will be breaking down for a long time....year or more? does that sound right?

Funny thing about ammonia is you can test 90 times in a day and never change readings then do one more and it spikes off the charts, you have to see it to believe it but it can be crazy.
I think you may get away with some of this because of the large water volume and small fish but that doesn't mean it isn't spiking. You said you had saltwater fish 14 years right? So you should notice issues rather quickly and would probably do a large water change to help them breath without being poisoned LOL!
When I cycled my 12G tank it killed a fish because I didn't wait long enough, small damsel at that, the water volume just isn't there to accommodate the waste and cycling that was occurring. I do agree with the rest on the normal processes, which is IMO the right way to go. Now with that said, starting off completely dry as you had the Idea in the bottle would be to populate the tank with beneficial bacterial which no doubt is a good idea but I would of done it slightly different. One I would of boiled the rock clean after it being dry so long, purify it basically and the big difference I would of done is not add fish. I would have a large tank of water, lots of clean dry rock and nice dry sand. I would run the tank normally at that point, light cycles, skimmer temp everything else but the fish and feeding.
What would you benefit from doing this? Well you get all of the good bacteria you need and want, you have no unwanted critters algae and other things that could cause issues. My little 12g tank was started this way, took a long time to get good cycle but It has the benefits as mentioned.
The only downfall to all this is like most people they want the LR & LS and all of the critters involved, so the desired type reef setup is completely different thought process about how it is accomplished.
IMO all you can do at this point is ride it out, take notes and share your findings with us, be detailed and as honest as you can be with the information, this will be the most helpful. Also remember for every one post here you have 50 users not posting here but just reading it, so everyone will have their own opinion or desire to see your results regardless of the outcome. Last thing I want is you to feel like we're ganging up on you, you are facing some very experienced people here and we all respect their knowledge so keep that in mind, your doing something and sharing, good bad or whatever it is cool to get people involved, so when you see the replies then you know your bringing in an interest!

 

[kpiotrowski]

Thanks scooterman. Yes I want to be as accurate as possible and completly honest about this experiement for the good of all. Even asked another member to come over to take a look at my situation first hand. I started fish keeping in 2000 but this is my first salt tank, but I probably cared for my freshwater better than many care for thier fowlr! Funny about the boiling the rock....i started a thread entililed "dead live rock, bleach boil or both?" cuz I am a bleach and boild kinda guy, so that fact that I never is a new thing I tried also. I am really curious about how you say ammonia can spike so suddenly. could you explain this more as to the how and why?

there is no hard feelings over differnences in opinions...I guess its just a pet-peeve of mine when people give very strong advice about something they don't have all the information about. so, If someone has never used this exact product, how can they say I wrong ( when I am experimenting in the first place) or it won't work when i have yet to the end results. Not knowing that there are live bacterii product that actually work is new to me as all of the other stuff I have ever tried was simply a waste of money.

I am thinking on ordering some salifert test kits also, so I will be able to compare elos, salifert, and api brands.

 

[DonW]

I guess its just a pet-peeve of mine when people give very strong advice about something they don't have all the information about.

There is just some information that has already been proven to be fact that cant be disputed. The information your getting is from experienced folks that are just stating undisputed facts. I'm all for trying new products but one thing you must realize, is that we have seen these products come and go for decades. The companies come in make some money from new saltwater hobbyist and they are gone as fast as they came in. Nobody is disputing that the bacteria will do part of the process. But part of the process is simply not enough so why spend the money. The only reason to buy such a product is to rush the stocking process which is fine if your goal is to house a fish but for a reef aquarium its just not acceptable.
I for one am all for an experiment but I find the experiment to be flawed and nothing more than a diary of your experience with a product. Don't get me wrong this diary once finished and put in a readable format may be useful to someone. Maybe it will only be useful to you, along the way hopefully the the process will teach you a thing or two about the whole biological process, who knows. Keep doing your test and see what the results are and then try to figure out why you got the results you did. The science and experimenting for me was always the fun part of the hobby. I would not run out and spend more money on test kits. They are all just hobbyist test kits and are only as accurate as a hobbyist needs to be. They serve a day to day testing purpose only and are useless when it comes to running any sort of real experiment.

Don

 

[kpiotrowski]

I must say I am disapointed to report zero ammonia or nitrite AND that it seems nitrates are decreasing cuz that part makes no sense to me, about 5 to 8ppm nitrate. I am disapointed because this is so unatural and it doesn't let me "feel" like I am cycling. if anything changes significantly then I will report.

 

[Krish]

Nitrate is rising because there is nothing really there to convert it or use it up so it is continuously being produced and accumilated through the conversion of ammonia into nitrite into nitrate. The reason why you aren't reading any ammonia or nitrite is because aerobic bacteria does a great job at converting ammonia and nitrite in a short amount of time which is why you hardly ever read it once you have built up some nice bacterial colonies (nitrifying bacteria) unless something goes out of whack.

 

[kpiotrowski]

Nitrate is rising because there is nothing really there to convert it or use it up so it is continuously being produced and accumilated through the conversion of ammonia into nitrite into nitrate. The reason why you aren't reading any ammonia or nitrite is because aerobic bacteria does a great job at converting ammonia and nitrite in a short amount of time which is why you hardly ever read it once you have built up some nice bacterial colonies (nitrifying bacteria) unless something goes out of whack.

NO....the nitrate is on the way DOWN. thats the confusing part

 

[kpiotrowski]

no ammonia or nitrites still. nitrate below 5ppm ( from a high of 15). running 4 t-5 ho's for 6 hours a day for last 5 days( why waste the halides and vho bulbs) soooooo, yeah, guess its time for a cleaner crew and maybee a sand sifting gobie and see what happens next. haven't been skimming much..like only a cup in the last 4 days, but its pretty dark. havn't dialed in the skimmer though cuz have been wiating for the ATO i just fnished tonight, so now the sump level will be consistant.

just watched my first episode of "tanked". how the hell do they add all those fish at once to a new tank? they must be including more biologically active media than just bacteria in a bottle right? anybody know what they do?

 

[akunochi]

There is a lot of thought on how those fish are added.

A couple general agreed upon things are...

1. The fish die and they just replace them (Look at the clientele plus notice the fish were straight from a transhipper,and had illnesses. )
2. They have a bacteria product available to the industry only (Like what you are using but stronger. Keep in mind these are FOWLR tanks though)
3. They use pre-cycled bioballs. (notice the wet-dry system they use for filtration)

 

[mojoreef]

So do you know where you are in the cycle ??


Mojo

 

[kpiotrowski]

So do you know where you are in the cycle ??


Mojo

Probably entering the "moron" cylce lol. have to assume its time for a cleaner crew and some macros. prob get in on a bulk order in a week or two as long as things stay on this path. didn't want any macros untill I seen the nitrates start to come down because my theory was then I would know that the anearobic bateria were in place first. just seem a little soon to be doing what appears to be a good job...right?

I am really behind though. Been working too much so I can pay for everything, but leaves me very little time to work on my sytem. going out of town today and back on friday to work another double....next thing I know it will be another week gone by.

 

[kpiotrowski]

well, nitrates have been zero for 3 days now from a high over 15ppm. still no ammonia or nitrite. Experiment is as complete for me as I care about as today marks 4 weeks....anybody need a bottle of turbostart 900 cuz I havn't had to use the emergency one I had on hand. my conclusion at this point is this product has proven its worth to me. I have cylced my tank to zero (trace) nitrates and my livestock has not had to endure the nasty nitrogen cylce in the process, I have not had to pee in my tank....and I can eat my raw shrimp with some cocktail sauce. Yes there are many ways to arrive at the same destinations, and I am glad I gave this product a chance to show me, ONE of the biggest skeptics, what has turned out to be a great way to cycle a tank and have fun in the mean time. ( Although getting so drunk you piss in your sump sounds like it could be a good time too!)

 

[Frankie]

If your not testing daily then you cannot understand the cycle this produce will perform. So there is really no telling where you stand right now.
It's too late now unless your willing to start over and test from day one, to the completion of the cycle.

Welcome to RF kp! Sorry to be out for so long, work is kicking my butt. I would have be interested in watching this product work.

I will be doing the 14 day zeovit cycle soon with daily updates to see where there claims will lead.

Personally, I agree with mojo that you cannot fully cycle a system that fast because of the lack in bacteria stability. The problem with all these products is there tricking people into believing that there systems will be mature in a hurry. When in fact they are just going through an accelerated cycle. More then likely there will be mini cycles throughout the first 6 months also as the system matures and during the addition of animals. I can fairly say I am positive on that. Each addition to the system will have an impact on the system.

There is just not enough stable nitrifying bacteria to handle sudden changes durning the first 6 months to a year. So animals will suffer regardless of what our poor mans test kits will reveal. Just like you cannot tell if a dog is sick with a cold, you won't be able to tell very much from just observation. Fish are not going to cry out when they are suffering.

I will go over the thread tonight when I get home to get a better grasp on what has been said in this thread. I only had time to quickly glance it over.

Frank

 

[kpiotrowski]

If your not testing daily then you cannot understand the cycle this produce will perform. So there is really no telling where you stand right now.
It's too late now unless your willing to start over and test from day one, to the completion of the cycle.

Welcome to RF kp! Sorry to be out for so long, work is kicking my butt. I would have be interested in watching this product work.

I will be doing the 14 day zeovit cycle soon with daily updates to see where there claims will lead.

Personally, I agree with mojo that you cannot fully cycle a system that fast because of the lack in bacteria stability. The problem with all these products is there tricking people into believing that there systems will be mature in a hurry. When in fact they are just going through an accelerated cycle. More then likely there will be mini cycles throughout the first 6 months also as the system matures and during the addition of animals. I can fairly say I am positive on that. Each addition to the system will have an impact on the system.

There is just not enough stable nitrifying bacteria to handle sudden changes durning the first 6 months to a year. So animals will suffer regardless of what our poor mans test kits will reveal. Just like you cannot tell if a dog is sick with a cold, you won't be able to tell very much from just observation. Fish are not going to cry out when they are suffering.

I will go over the thread tonight when I get home to get a better grasp on what has been said in this thread. I only had time to quickly glance it over.

Frank

With the exceptions of nittrates, and being out of town twice for 2 days, I have tested daily. as far as mini cycle...your tank goes through a mini cycle everytime you add a fish!....everytime you feed! Just bescause your test kit can't read it doesn't mean its not there! Is my tank fully matured? hell no!, all I'm ready for is a cleaner crew, some pods, and a diamond gobie....and then I will test and test and test....and test and test andtest....I will be testing practiacly daily for....years perrhaps and then probaly every few days. seems like most of the replies to this thread have been argumentive so I'm glad to see you are trying a similar product..but its not going to work lol. all that really matters is this product is interesting and has value in only the smallest part of reefkeeping imaginable. most will never need this product. the only value it has is to help cycle a tank a little quicker and to allow for the immediates addition of livestock withoout that livestock living in high ammonia or nitrite. the most usefull I see this product being is if somone adds too much of a bioload at once to a tank it will help knock down the ammonia and nitrite spikes.

again, can we stay focused on the topic ( for future replies, not frankie)? its about how well these products work..if they even do...and which ones work better. Not that they don't work at all, cuz thats not true, and not that they are not essenitial...becuase that is true!

 

[crazyfish253]

I normal use old tank water when setting up a new tank. Just did it this weekend new 125 used old live rock and 50% old water 50% new. SPS is fine and zena is pulsing. same they're as bottled stuff. I've used the fresh water tetra stuff it works! If old tank water is not available to me and no live rock you bet the Bacteria in a bottle is my next option.

 

[Krish]

I normal use old tank water when setting up a new tank. Just did it this weekend new 125 used old live rock and 50% old water 50% new. SPS is fine and zena is pulsing. same they're as bottled stuff. I've used the fresh water tetra stuff it works! If old tank water is not available to me and no live rock you bet the Bacteria in a bottle is my next option.

Any reason you use old tank water? The reason I ask is because it carries very little beneficial bacteria in it which is why you can do a 100% water change on a tank and once temp, salinity etc all match up, nothing is effected.

 

[crazyfish253]

Ya I think you answered it your self. (Some) You can do a 100% water change on an old tank it has bacteria. This 50/50 method has worked to many times on over 11 different tanks for someone to sway my opinion. Im no scientists and I'm not going to spend my little free time studying something that works. The wheel has been invented.