My purple tang is in trouble

[krisfal]

So, not hyposalinating a fish is cruelty to animals, or are we morally committed to everything we buy?

I could argue animal cruelty:

RCW 16.52.207

Animal cruelty in the second degree.


</B>(1) A person is guilty of animal cruelty in the second degree if, under circumstances not amounting to first degree animal cruelty, the person knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence inflicts unnecessary suffering or pain upon an animal.

(2) An owner of an animal is guilty of animal cruelty in the second degree if, under circumstances not amounting to first degree animal cruelty, the owner knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence:

(a) Fails to provide the animal with necessary shelter, rest, sanitation, space, or medical attention and the animal suffers unnecessary or unjustifiable physical pain as a result of the failure;

(b) Under circumstances not amounting to animal cruelty in the second degree under (c) of this subsection, abandons the animal; or

(c) Abandons the animal and (i) as a result of being abandoned, the animal suffers bodily harm; or (ii) abandoning the animal creates an imminent and substantial risk that the animal will suffer substantial bodily harm.

(3)(a) Animal cruelty in the second degree under subsection (1), (2)(a), or (2)(b) of this section is a misdemeanor.

(b) Animal cruelty in the second degree under subsection (2)(c) of this section is a gross misdemeanor.

(4) In any prosecution of animal cruelty in the second degree under subsection (1) or (2)(a) of this section, it shall be an affirmative defense, if established by the defendant by a preponderance of the evidence, that the defendant's failure was due to economic distress beyond the defendant's control.

Really not trying to be rude here. But it just bothers me that the excuse is it is a pain to pull out my rock.

And my personal feeling is we do have a moral obligation to other living creatures wether or not we buy them, but I feel if we take them out of the wild, for our own enjoyment our obligation is increased!

 

[chend2]

That would require him not treating the fish at all. A reasonable finder of fact would be unable to find that treating a fish in a display tank versus quarantine amounts to failure of provision. In fact all cases of animal cruelty even hospice care applies. Also criminal negligence found in section B which is a necessary but not sufficient element of the crime requires gross negligence which would not be the case here for a plethora of reasons.

 

[chend2]

How bout transshipped fish that receive no care, shelter, rest, sanitation, or food during transport which causes about 30% of reef fish to arrive D.O.A. are they guilty too? And, if so, are we aiding and abetting?

These are just honest questions, I have no personal disagreement with your opinion.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

chend, he either tries to help a sick creature or he doesn't. To avoid the attempt due to the difficulty of moving a rock amounts to simple disregard. Back to my point, if moving a rock was too much bother, one should reevaluate whether one was equipped to manage this particular hobby and perhaps freshwater fish would be more appropriate.

Too many get into this hobby because some clueless salesman at a big box pet store said it was easy. Another reason why these fake medicines get sold.

This hobby is not easy, it is not cheap, and it can not be done uneducated. There are many other hobbies that can.

Back to the point of the topic.
He has a sick tang and other fish including an angel in that tank. These fish are advanced specimens in a diseased tank. Untreated they will die. If he is fine with that, then best find a new hobby. His call but remember, he is the one that asked for help on more than one thread.

 

[krisfal]

That would require him not treating the fish at all. A reasonable finder of fact would be unable to find that treating a fish in a display tank versus quarantine amounts to failure of provision. In fact all cases of animal cruelty even hospice care applies. Also criminal negligence found in section B which is a necessary but not sufficient element of the crime requires gross negligence which would not be the case here for a plethora of reasons.

I should have known better than "arguing" (for lack of a better term) with you, if I am remembering correctly don't you have some type of legal background?

 

[chend2]

I agree, but a request for advice merely a request for available options as well as recommendations. Failure to heed the advice given should not result in a cyberspace admonishment or a call to a different hobby. Advice are merely opinions as well, I would like to challenge us all to be more tolerant of one another in giving that advice. I would hope that the old adage "if you can't say something nice," would find application considering that we are meant to encourage one another. A strong feeling of poor decision making on the part of an individual should never become judgment upon that individual or a open invitation for unasked and generally unfriendly comments.

 

[chend2]

Maybe... either way Kris I totally agree with you. My finance is a program manager at an environmental non-prof so taking the less liberal side would be folly. I just like reading not only how persons feel we should act the way we do but also the why we should act the way we do. Thereby making the world better? Maybe? Lol, or maybe I should just stop.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

A strong feeling of poor decision making on the part of an individual should never become judgment upon that individual or a open invitation for unasked and generally unfriendly comments.

Don't think anyone here has made a judgement on any individual. we are talking about to care for a fish or to not care for a fish. Perhaps we best keep it to topic?

 

[chend2]

Oh also mike a really agree with the second statement you made.... However, back to my original thought, how come no one gives contrary advice to an experienced reefer who does not which to break down his live rock and retrieve a fish, only new ones?

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Oh also mike a really agree with the second statement you made.... However, back to my original thought, how come no one gives contrary advice to an experienced reefer who does not which to break down his live rock and retrieve a fish, only new ones?

Not at all, just yesterday I had two friends come over for advise on sick fish in their HUGE new system. The problem was due to the old timer breaking the rules of cycling and was responsible for killing many large very nice fish bought for a newby.

Newby or old timer, matters not to me.

Thru the years, I have killed as many or more than many here due to common mistakes or not knowing the best solutions to problems.


Mike

 

[chend2]

Same... :-( Either way, I promise to always take your advice, since it has yet to fail me.

 

[krisfal]

As a person who tends to do research through past threads to answer my own questions I would want to see that this person's treatment plan is not what is recommended.

Now maybe the goldfish comment was not appropriate but the point was this is not an easy hobby, but goldfish are easy. But for me to be totally tolerant I would have had to ignore this thread, and many others too who had offered advice on the same topic, same fish, in an earlier thread, would have had to ignore it.

So we all ignore this thread and the poster indicates I used kick ich, did a water change and the fish is better and never post again (even if the fish succumbs to the parasite) and down the road somebody new comes in and searches "tang and ich" and hits this thread and figures that is all they need to do to treat ich and their fish dies, just because we are trying to be tolerant!

 

[chend2]

I see your point. Wow, with all this philosophical chit chat, this fish better live!

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Nice to have someone to have a friendly chat with on a bloodbath stock market day.
The fish are having some relief in this Ich Trophont stage (falsely attributed to rid-Ick) but I fear as we have seen over and over; the Ick will come back twice as strong after reproducing, the tank will be treated again with rid-Ick, and the fish will die a very unpleasant death. (is there a pleasant way to die?)

Thanks for the calming chat folks.

p.s. this thread could have been better moved to our Fish forum

 

[chend2]

I have a question. Will ich always be in the water as long as there is a fish in the water with ich? Or will the parasite die if it cannot find a host?. For example, if the fish will not contract it because of the strong healthy immune system.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

I have a question. Will ich always be in the water as long as there is a fish in the water with ich? Or will the parasite die if it cannot find a host?. For example, if the fish will not contract it because of the strong healthy immune system.

Rid Ich contains both malachite green and formalin. The MG used to be the primary attempted treatment for Ick. Formalin is good for dips. Neither will cure the fish nor remove the parasite from the tank.

Immune system isn't really the issue except for secondary infections. Ick is not a bacteria, it is a little complex creature. Think "burrowing crab" for an analogy. A strong fish will better withstand the repeated onslaughts, but in most immature tanks, the fish just gradually die off one by one if not faster.

I will ask the mod to move this thread if they have a chance and perhaps Lee can chime in. He is brilliant!

 

[leebca]

You will find most facts here, with regards to Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans): Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

Captive marine fish are under stress. The best we and hobbyists can do is reduce as much of that stress as possible. So a captive marine fish is already at a disadvantage when facing parasites and diseases, compared to their wild life chances.

Second, the confines of an aquarium system lets the parasite 'bloom' in very large numbers. The fish will face many hundreds times the number of organisms than they would in the wild. The fish becomes a 'captive' host to the parasite. Confining marine fish is to the benefit of parasites, once they get into the system (hence my efforts to encourage people to quarantine and not let them into the system).

The above contributes to the statement: Marine Ich infects healthy and sick fish in the home aquarium.

Their immune system can do so much -- remember it was developed based upon their exposure to the wild not in the aquarium. Their system can't cope with the added stress of captive life AND high numbers of parasites.

A weakened, stressed fish will succumb to death quicker, but all fish have equal opportunity to become infected by this parasite.

 

[krisfal]

I have a question. Will ich always be in the water as long as there is a fish in the water with ich? Or will the parasite die if it cannot find a host?. For example, if the fish will not contract it because of the strong healthy immune system.

Chend
I recall reading a post from Lee where a similar question was asked, but I have searched and searched and cannot find it.

But if I remember correctly he stated that a marine aquarium that contained fish which did not contract the parasite, and which had no new inhabitants added for a period of 11 months likely could be considered to be ich free.

The parasite must host in a fish as part of its life cycle, which is why we can rid the tank of ich by leaving it fishless for 8 weeks.

Since I cannot find the thread hopefully Lee will jump in if my memory has failed me.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28447

 

[krisfal]

Thanks for finding that link Mike! I knew it was out there somewhere!

It was the basis for me feeling confident to combine the fish and rock from my 46g (which had fish succumb to ich 3 years ago, but had not been left fallow for a full 8 weeks to eradicate the ich, this was before I found RF and Lee and his wonderful advice) to my new display tank in with tangs etc from a 130g display tank which had experienced ich and in which the fish were removed (all the rock had to be removed to catch the fish) treated with hypo and tank left fallow. As I had not seen any sign of ich in the 46g for over 2 years and no new fish or livestock had been added in a year and a half I felt it could be considered ich free.