Nitrofurazone question

[azgard1]

Will Nitrofurazone kill the bio-filter in a QT tank for a fish that needs to be treated?

I understand that Nitrofurazone is used as a one-time dose (first day only) of 30 to 40 mg per gallon for a three- to five-day treatment.

Problem I see is that yellow Nitrofurazone will render Ammonia tests worthless.

If I add additional water for a water change then the water removed with reduce the medication level. Or do you not change any water? If so How much and how often?

Thanks so much to all in advance.

 

[LakeEd]

I'm confused with the use of this med...

Nitrofurazone is used for treating burns that have become infected?

You have a burned fish????

Guess I'll have to await Lee's answer, so I can learn (as always)

 

[LakeEd]

I forgot the MOST Important thing in my post...

WELCOME TO REEF FRONTIERS!!!!!

 

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEF FRONTIERS!

NITROFURAZONE (in the product, Furan-2) is bactericidal for many Gram Positive and Gram Negative bacteria causing disease in fresh water and marine fishes. This antibacterial is effective for control of Aeromonas, Vibrio and related bacteria species. Nitrofurazone is particularly useful for control of minor topical skin infections of marine fishes that have not become systemic (internal).

Because it is a 'broad spectrum' antibiotic, it does kill the bacteria (Gram Positive) that inhabit and run the biological filter in marine systems.

It is one of the more potent antibiotics used to kill the marine bacteria that also infect humans. If you have one of those infections going on, be sure to not come in contact with the system/aquarium/QT water.

If you want to test for Ammonia (and you should want to) then you'll have to find a test that uses different chemicals to reach a different colored endpoint. Of course, you can assume there is a biological filter crash, in which you'll be wanting to make large and frequent water changes.

Add the same dosage to the replacement water going into the QT for water changes, during the treatment time. The amount of antibiotic that diminishes with time will be something not to worry about during the treatment time.

If the biological filter has stopped its operation and you have no chemical treatment going on (that will handle the ammonia and nitrites, but not reduce the antibiotic in solution), then you perform water changes customized to the fish(es) being treated and how much and how often you're feeding the fish(es). An eating, robust omnivore fed three times a day will need about two 50%+ water changes per day.

During this treatment, the fish need the optimal nutrition, vitamin supplements and immune boosters you can get into them. See: Immune Boosters.

I can only assume you've chosen to use Nitrofurazone because you suspect Gram Positive infections of the fish. Gram Positive infections are not common. Most routine bacterial infections in captive marine fishes are Gram Negative. That is why (without any identification of the bacteria) I start off using a Gram Negative antibiotic and if that doesn't work, then switch to a broad spectrum or a specific one that kills Gram Positive bacteria.

The above of course can be set aside if you have identified the bacteria through scrapings, culture and visual confirmation. If you've done this, then you should know exactly how to treat and what to use.

We're here to help. Ask if you have any more questions or want additional information.

 

[NaH2O]

Lee - are the ammonia kits you refer to in the post easy to locate? I don't think I'd even know where to start to find one.....well, other than ask Boomer lolol .

 

[leebca]

Boomer probably would be the best 'bet.'

I know you can't use the Salifert TK. Frankly, I would use dip sticks to determine if there is a presence or not. The amount is sort of irrelevant when you have no operational bio filter. If there is a presence then water changes are a must.

The reason why I no longer do more than dip sticks is my secret. Please don't spread it around. I use Algone sacks in my QT when the bio filter goes down. Algone can be used during copper and antibiotic treatments.

 

[azgard1]

Hi, and thank you for the warm welcome.

I have some pure nitrofurazone from ARG aquaScience research group in Kansas City, MO.

Indication is that it is good for both Gram-negative and positive bacteria.

Would I be wrong to use this, in the event as you say "Most bacteria that infect fish are gram-negative"?

What other drug would be your frist choice in a typical gram-neg issue?

 

[leebca]

You're welcome.

I wouldn't say, "wrong" per se. What you have (if not expired) is in hand. However, it is a bit like using a shotgun rather than a sniper rifle. I hold off on using that particular antibiotic for the bacteria types mentioned above.

I don't know what is wrong with the fish, so I can't recommend anything in particular. My favorite is to use Maracyn Two for Saltwater Fish. It targets Gram Negative only, leaving the biological filter running. It also takes care of most general (G-N) bacterial infections. What I also like is that it will go into the fish and also take care of many of the systemic G-N infections.

 

[azgard1]

Thanks, I really appreciate this.

The fish is a Large adult Imperator. I have days to respond to this problem, it is not eating and is recovering from eye and body Flukes as well as Ick. The initial problem is gone now, however the fish is currently 90% blind in both eyes and raised scale and body lesions remain. I have been feeding clam by hand.

I have a very limited time frame but the fish is strong and I think could recover. This is the reason for the broad-spectrum.

Would amo-lock hold the water in check for a 3day period?
Do you think M2 would be the better shot at this?

This is a wonderful forum, thanks so much for your help.

 

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of the problems with such a beautiful fish. Sounds like you're making a good effort to help it.

You're welcome, again.

I would use the Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish. In this case, double the dosage recommended on the package.

Clam is fine, but you need to get vitamins and immune boosters (See: Immune Boosters) into the fish as quickly as you can, then follow with supplements of fats.

If the fish's skin is blotchy or perhaps missing some mucous coating, you can help that. Pro Tech Coat Marine and StressGuard may be used as a temporary mucus layer, or to help the fish repair its mucous layer.

To help the fish conserve energy, you can lower the sp. gr. to about 1.016 to 1.018 until the fish pulls through, then increase the sp. gr. over a period of no less than 2 days.

I'm unfamiliar with amo-lock. Unless someone has direct, reliable information, you need to contact the manufacturer and get their approval of its use during an antibiotic treatment. Let them know what you are treating for and what meds you are/will be using, then get their advice. Sorry I couldn't help you with that question.

 

[azgard1]

I have plenty of M2 on hand. This is a 12" fish do you think a 20gal QT will be OK? In using M2 at 2x will an ammonia test kit still be reliable? Im using aquarium pharmaceuticals. I have my 300gal main display on hand what would your thought be on water changes?
Do you know of any nutrient supplement that can be absorbed via the fish body until it starts eating normally?
What Immune Boosters or Immune-stimulant would you recomend in this case?
Thanks so much.

 

[leebca]

The min hospital tank for such a fish should be 90 gallons.

Maracyn 2 should not interfere with the ammonia test kit, but it does turn the water a bit yellow. What you might try to do is compare the test result with some of the untested water, in the same container, side by side, to see if there is any difference in hue or intensity.

Vita-Chem can be put directly into the water and the fish will benefit somewhat from it. The best is still oral ingestion.

Beta Glucan would be my choice. Follow the directions in the reference and put it into the food.

 

[azgard1]

I have a 60gal I can bring on line. Fish is already in a 55gal but the water is tainted with previous parasite treatment. In order to bring the second unit on line I will use water from the main 300gal display. However the filter I can move over has carbon in it. From you experience will seasoned carbon reduce the M2 effect?

Also,
Will M2 effect live rock?
What would your thought be on water changes? If any?

Thanks, great recommendations

 

[leebca]

If the fish is now in a 55 and you are planning to put it into a 60, then I would not do this. Just leave the fish alone.

Perform a very large water change, making sure to keep things steady. (See: How to Make a Successful Water Change). [I know you're experienced; just want to be sure you are gentle to the fish].

Do not use display tank water for any water change. Use newly prepared water.

Carbon absorbs organics (e.g., antibiotics). Old carbon absorbs elements. In between it is doing both. Not worth the risk. I would remove the old carbon.

Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes has been used with live rock both with and without success. Sorry to say, it depends how many of the G-N bacteria have set up home on the LR and the type of invert inhabitants. In general, Maracyn Two has shown being safe for some invertebrates. But some don't fair well. It's a toss up.

Large water changes, once every two days at least. The tank is too small and you're helping compensate for that. When the fish starts eating well, gear up to once a day about 50% and sock the carbon and filters to the QT.

Water quality will be almost as equal importance as the medication. Think of the medication as a means to help the fish heal itself, and you'll the idea of what is going on. (Hence my encouragement to get food into the fish along with supplements -- the fish does the healing, not the medication).

 

[azgard1]

Thanks Lee, this is without doubt some of the best info I've ever received or read for that matter. Believe me I've read a great deal.
I'll keep you posted on my progress.
Thanks for the warm welcome.
Bob

 

[leebca]

Kind of you to say so, Bob. We're all here to help. Just post!

 

[azgard1]

View attachment 22776
image 1
View attachment 22778
image 2
View attachment 22779
image 3

This is the current status of recovery after 2 days. Please help me identify the various problems in the attached pictures?

Also, I have some nitrofurazone from the previous treatment attempt mixed in with the M2, will that mix of antibiotic be a problem?

 

[azgard1]

Both eyes similar problem
View attachment 22780
image 4

Side reverse view
View attachment 22781
image 5

 

[NaH2O]

azgard - just wanted to thank you for posting the pics. Hopefully, Lee will have an idea of what is going on there...

 

[LakeEd]

The 1st picture, looks like a parasite of some type under the scales???

I also am sure Lee will know what your problem is, and will set you down the road to recovery!