phosban reactors

[spongebob lover]

Thank you very much for the explanation Mike .
About the feeding, i'm feeding flakes to my fishes, but then at night i'm feeding frozen cyclo peeze to my sun coral (every day) which i think it's also helping the algae grow.

also make ure you give it a good rice prior to use

one thing is, what do you mean by that?

Once again Thank you Mike .

 

[Krish]

one thing is, what do you mean by that?

Once again Thank you Mike .

Maybe a good rinse he meant of the phosban media before use

 

[spongebob lover]

ohh ok got it , i thought he was meaning to add a little bit more than what it says to add.
can i rinse it with tap water or do i have to do it with RO/DI ? sorry i just gotta make sure i know everything before i use one , sorry if it sounded dumb though .

 

[liveforphysics]

he meant "rinse"

Mojo- Do you have any evidence to support your statement that vegitation biomass is unstable when the biomass is Cheato under 2700k lighting? I would agree with your statement when I used daylight bulbs, but with the 2700ks, its rock solid. I love to experiment, if you can think of a way that I could make the cheato crash and release its nutrients back into the tank without removing lighting or setting up a skimmer (yes, I know a skimmer will make it unstable), please let me know and I will try it. I would love to see it happen, and it shouldnt be hard to think of something since its 'unstable' .

Now seriously guys. Does it really sound more safe to bind some of your P into FeO3 which can toast your whole tank if you bump your flow regulating valve, or a variety of other problems?

Or does it sound safer and more reasonable to have the P become part of totally harmless algae which you just perodically grab a handful of for nutrient export?

I know I cant push anybody to try it, but damn, I cant see where the fear of the algae comes from. It's so easy, safe, stable, logical, with many more bennificial qualities rather than risks.

Whats the worst that could happen just by trying it? Nitrates drop to zero, phosphates drop to zero, micro and macro fauna increase, display stops growing algae, tank becomes able to tolerate big overfeeding, detritus decreases markedly.

 

[Krish]

ohh ok got it , i thought he was meaning to add a little bit more than what it says to add.
can i rinse it with tap water or do i have to do it with RO/DI ? sorry i just gotta make sure i know everything before i use one , sorry if it sounded dumb though .

I'd use ro/di because you may be transferring nitrates into your tank in the damp media from the tap water which a phosban reactor won't remove. I don't want you to waste any of that 3 gallons of ro/di you use weekly though(LOL)

 

[Krish]

Whats the worst that could happen just by trying it? Nitrates drop to zero, phosphates drop to zero, micro and macro fauna increase, display stops growing algae, tank becomes able to tolerate big overfeeding, detritus decreases markedly.

Can you find or have micro and macro fauna in a BB system? If you can't then I'm screwed(LOL) BB all the way!

I wouldn't say I'm scared to try your approach, but what I personally have setup for my system, is working wonderfully for my system. It wouldn't make any sense for me to try to fix something that isn't really "broken" in my case. It may be worth looking into if I personally had problems in my tank I couldn't sort out. But things are going well, which like I've said before, is the beauty of the hobby. What works for me may not work for you and vice versa. Shucks, some people could have the same everything...Equipment, tank, skimmer etc. right down to the exact same fish, and one could have success and the other failure. Basically, my system is maintained by me. My skimmer and flow etc. just help me out. I clean like crazy, keep media changed and upto date, etc. and I feel the time when my system gives me problems, is when I slack off of my regular routine. I couldn't rely on chaeto living in the Bahamas anyway. The stuff needs light to grow and work and these idiots over here have trouble keeping the power on on a regular basis without a powerplant generator breaking down!(LOL) I'm glad you are bringing diversity here Luke, just personally it is't for me, but may be for someone else. I do want some chaeto though, but to work along with what I already have

 

[mojoreef]

Mojo- Do you have any evidence to support your statement that vegitation biomass is unstable when the biomass is Cheato under 2700k lighting?

Anything that is alive is unstable.
Lets say you have a temp spike, or just maybe the tank runs a little warmer then normal? Or maybe you add new lights??

and with increased irradiance and water temperature Chaetomorpha can consume more oxygen than it produces (Krause-Jensen et al 1996).

Or maybe it brings something nasty into the tank??

Green alga Chaetomorpha Kuetzing, collected from intertidal beaches , was found to be infected with the fungi Pontisma lagenidioides Petersen and Labyrinthula sp. The severity of diseases was measured in terms of percentage of diseased cells and loss in fresh weight. Maximum infection occurred at salinities of 30 and 35 ppt. Infection was greater when the algal cultures were aerated. (Raghukumar, C. 1987)

Or maybe the algae contains toxins or antimicrobal properties and begins to effect critters around it??

A significant difference (p<0.01, ANOVA) in antibacterial activity of the extracts of Chaetomorpha was found in different seasons. Significant difference (p<0.001, ANOVA) was also found in the inhibitory activities of acetone extracts of distal and proximal parts of Chaetomorpha of summer (Crasta, PJ; Raviraja, NS; Sridhar, KR
1997)

So thier good for micro fuana? and dont allow for organic build up?

Macro-algal mats of Chaetomorpha were found to have dramatic negative effects on the density of the amphipod Corophium , with higher algal biomasses having greater impact. The mechanism for this interaction seems to be interference by the algal filaments with the feeding behaviour of the amphipod. In contrast, the polychaete Capitella spp. increases in abundance under macro-algal mats due to enrichment of the sediment with organic material.(D. Raffaelli 2000)

Anyway Cheato is more of a P up-taker and doesnt realy do alot with N (ratio is 80 to 4) so its really not an end all do all thing. As does Ferric oxide it has its nitche (dissolve inorganic P) if thier is some available and it passes by the algae it will uptake it. BUT you have to concider the live organism factor, it is much more susceptable to enviromental impact then a simple peice of equipment, thats just common sence. Personally I am of the approach of limit input and export as much as you can. You have to remember your tank has virtually no bioload, 2 or 3 small fish and a couple of softies?? so I wouldnt imagine that you have a detritus issue.


Mike

 

[-=dieseldave=-]

Gaby, Feel free to use your tap water for rinsing it has a TDS of 35-40ppm and 0 nitrates. our water comes from the same place.

 

[wrightme43]

If your using the reactor with phosban. The instructions say to put it in dry, then take the output line and let it run in a bucket untill it is clear. That is how I do it.

 

[Krish]

If your using the reactor with phosban. The instructions say to put it in dry, then take the output line and let it run in a bucket untill it is clear. That is how I do it.

You're right Steve and not to use the dust particles at the bottom. The problem with the instructions is sometimes it takes forever to clear up. I usually do a quick ro/di rinse and they run it over some filter floss in my sump till it clears. It is much quicker that way IMO

 

[liveforphysics]

I expected better

Anything that is alive is unstable.
Lets say you have a temp spike, or just maybe the tank runs a little warmer then normal? Or maybe you add new lights??

If you want to try to play the anything alive is unstable card, then what method of NH3/4 processing and NO2 processing do you use? Does it function reliability for you even though its alive and therefore unstable?
What conditions would it take to kill off the cheato that wouldnt render the whole point mute do to much earlier destruction to the organisms in the display?

With reguards to extreme temp and O2 useage, would this be a concern at all if it requires temps above coral fatality points? Also, I would love to see chemically how that process occurs.

Or maybe it brings something nasty into the tank??
Quote:
Green alga Chaetomorpha Kuetzing, collected from intertidal beaches , was found to be infected with the fungi Pontisma lagenidioides Petersen and Labyrinthula sp. The severity of diseases was measured in terms of percentage of diseased cells and loss in fresh weight. Maximum infection occurred at salinities of 30 and 35 ppt. Infection was greater when the algal cultures were aerated. (Raghukumar, C. 1987)

Is this a consideration when you are getting it from a clean aquacultured source? I find the logic a bit silly. Doesn't ever piece of rock or any new coral run the risk of bringing something harmful into the tank? I would imagine this is one of the least likely carriers to bring something nasty of all the things we add to our tanks, espically from an aquacultured source.

Or maybe the algae contains toxins or antimicrobal properties and begins to effect critters around it??
Quote:
A significant difference (p<0.01, ANOVA) in antibacterial activity of the extracts of Chaetomorpha was found in different seasons. Significant difference (p<0.001, ANOVA) was also found in the inhibitory activities of acetone extracts of distal and proximal parts of Chaetomorpha of summer (Crasta, PJ; Raviraja, NS; Sridhar, KR
1997)

Once again, aquacultured source makes industrial toxins mute. Secondly, if they are performing a qualitative analisis of the cheato and finding toxins, I think that makes a strong point for another function of its ability to export things we dont want in the tank. If it requires an acetone extraction to expose the antibacterial agent, then its to prevent its own consumption or encaseing by bacteria. I dont see how this is a relivent concern in a reef unless you are grinding your cheato into paste, possibily adding a solvent if required, and then adding back into the tank. If this is ones reefkeeping stratigy, I would imagine the toxins in the corals would be a much more dangerous item to undergo this process.

So thier good for micro fuana? and dont allow for organic build up?
Quote:
Macro-algal mats of Chaetomorpha were found to have dramatic negative effects on the density of the amphipod Corophium , with higher algal biomasses having greater impact. The mechanism for this interaction seems to be interference by the algal filaments with the feeding behaviour of the amphipod. In contrast, the polychaete Capitella spp. increases in abundance under macro-algal mats due to enrichment of the sediment with organic material.(D. Raffaelli 2000)

Grasping at straws with this one?

Amphipod Corophium is a mud dwelling often freshwater pod. I wont ask it to grow in my cheato if it has a mechanical conflict with its structure. Myself and many others, yourself included, know from a simple glance at the cheato in a fuge can see that its teaming with life. I think you know you are just playing devils advocate.

I also think you know that the more homes detrivores have in a tank, the greater population they have (assumeing they arent food limited). The more detrivores, the less detritus.

Anyway Cheato is more of a P up-taker and doesnt realy do alot with N (ratio is 80 to 4) so its really not an end all do all thing.

Whoa, i think you need to check your source for that again. You are a little confused, or the article was BS or something. I consistantly found redfield ratios of:
Redfield Ratio: elemental ratio of elements
C : N : P = 106 : 16 : 1
(molar ratio!) under non-limiting conditions

And under maxium nitrate as a limiting reactant situation (as you well know the redfield ratio changes greatly depending on available nutrients), the closest the N comes is 10.

I just stumbled on this exellent thread which has some VERY good related info to this thread to read. It also happens to mention the nitrate doseing which I do when I take water from the cichlid tank to use for top off water in my reefs.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=611702&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

The fellow named "plantbrain" is quite educated on this sort of thing.

PS, if you would like to try to explain to me chemically how your 0.1 N ratio magic cheato chemically functions, I would love to see that worked out. LOL

As does Ferric oxide it has its nitche (dissolve inorganic P) if thier is some available and it passes by the algae it will uptake it. BUT you have to concider the live organism factor, it is much more susceptable to enviromental impact then a simple peice of equipment, thats just common sence. Personally I am of the approach of limit input and export as much as you can. You have to remember your tank has virtually no bioload, 2 or 3 small fish and a couple of softies?? so I wouldnt imagine that you have a detritus issue.

Mike

Mike, if you would like to explicity tell me what you feed(quality and quanity) your tank(s), we can calculate a simple specific feeding ratio which I will DOUBLE in one of my own reefs for a month or two and we can see how it goes. I love to experiment.

I hope you dont take this as hostility, as I intend this only to spur mutually informative and positive discussion.
-Luke

EDIT*

I dont want anyone to forget that in the presence of NH4 (required for a complex chemical reason to begin process), can directly utilize and bind both NH3 and NH4 directly. This means, prior to it getting started in the nitrogen cycle guys, as in, it doesnt even get the chance to become nitrate.

 

[mojoreef]

Liveforphysics

If you want to try to play the anything alive is unstable card, then what method of NH3/4 processing and NO2 processing do you use?

I am not trying to play any card, nor am not saying using cheato is bad, folks are always open to use what ever they wish to use. Cheato is among the more stable algaes out thier, if you methodology is to use algae then cheato is the best alturnative. I also think saying just use algae and throw everything else out is a bit silly.
As per processing, I try not to do any processing. I find that trying to compost nutrients is a long and ineffective means to remove detritus/particulate organics. Myself I perfer to remove them prior to breakdown.

I would imagine this is one of the least likely carriers to bring something nasty of all the things we add to our tanks, espically from an aquacultured source.

The longer you are in the hobby the more you will find yourself looking a little harder at this one. You are correct, everything you add could have potencial to bring something into the tank. These days with pest from acro eating flat worm, nudi's, red bugs and so on one has to question everything we put into our tanks. My goal is to collect and keep corals, their for I have to put them in, everything else is secondary.

Once again, aquacultured source makes industrial toxins mute. Secondly, if they are performing a qualitative analisis of the cheato and finding toxins, I think that makes a strong point for another function of its ability to export things we dont want in the tank

I think you are looking at this one wrong. Although the algae will absorb a number of things, from trace elements to nutrients and so on. This study was showing natural toxins produced by the algae. All algaes of this type produce these chemicals (secondary metabolites) for protection against preds and in thier strategy for dominance. These include everything from growth inhibitors to pred control. The algae does not have to be ground up, just simply bit into or broken. How do you harvest yours??
Again Cheato is the safest of these forms of algae but still contain amounts.

Whoa, i think you need to check your source for that again. You are a little confused, or the article was BS or something. I consistantly found redfield ratios of:
Redfield Ratio: elemental ratio of elements C : N : P = 106 : 16 : 1

I found different numbers then these in numerious studies, perhaps you have a link to your info source?? These studies were done by introducing nitrate and/or P and/or ammonium at different levels and intencities to find out what was the limiting source. The conclusion was that in the presence of P, nitrate and ammonium absorbsion was reduced (with no storage in chlorophylls). I would say that a reef tank has more of an abundance of P then N as it has other means to deal with N.

It also happens to mention the nitrate doseing which I do when I take water from the cichlid tank to use for top off water in my reefs.

yea I think once one begins to have to feed what they concider a filtration system with a toxic (to fish and corals) such as Nitrate, when in reality that is what the fitration is supposed to process then that would be a system I passed on.

Mike, if you would like to explicity tell me what you feed(quality and quanity) your tank(s), we can calculate a simple specific feeding ratio which I will DOUBLE in one of my own reefs for a month or two and we can see how it goes. I love to experiment.

LOL I like to experiment also, and have tried most methods over the coarse of 20 years in the hobby. I have tried the algal method using everything from ulva to chaeto to various calurpas, to cyano to xynia. Bit I always returned to just cleaning up the mess rather then tring to bind it into biological mass (weither that be fuana or vegitation). Personally I am pretty happy with my tank.

I dont want anyone to forget that in the presence of NH4 (required for a complex chemical reason to begin process), can directly utilize and bind both NH3 and NH4 directly. This means, prior to it getting started in the nitrogen cycle guys, as in, it doesnt even get the chance to become nitrate.

So how do you get ammonium in your tank??


Mike

 

[spongebob lover]

All i can say is woou.
I gotta thank you guys for your input because i'm really learning a lot for you guys, i think this is not only gonna help me but other folks that might be new to the hobby, might be wanting to do something different about their tanks or might not have a phosban like me and are wondering about it, so thank you for all your info

 

[Krish]

All i can say is woou.
I gotta thank you guys for your input because i'm really learning a lot for you guys, i think this is not only gonna help me but other folks that might be new to the hobby, might be wanting to do something different about their tanks or might not have a phosban like me and are wondering about it, so thank you for all your info

LOL...And all you wanted to know was what a phosban reactor was

 

[spongebob lover]

LOL...And all you wanted to know was what a phosban reactor was

yeah dood, but this is also good because now i'm leaning about Chaeto and how good can be for the tank

 

[liveforphysics]

Mojo- I appreciate your responce. I like that one much better.

My data is from university of hawaii.

The way to attain useful data reguardinig the nutrient export ratios is to simply grow a mass of algae, then harvest the algae and perform a quanitative analisis of its biomass with reguards to N and P.

You will also note that a redfield ratio used for all plant life uses P as the base 1 unit which the other elements are measured from. This is because P is always the lowest concentration, generally at least on a magnitude of 10 times less than N.

Also for a FYI, a buddy ratio compairs the NO3 and PO4 ratios in a plant, while a redfield ratio compairs the elemental N to P quanity in molar ratios.

Learn something new everyday!



So, seriously, I want to double your specific feeding rate (as in, food / gal) for experimental purposes so we can dispell this myth that my tanks work and are algae free due to low nutrient input. I know when I did agressive fish with cheato for filtration that the nutrient load was much beyond anything you are doing with sps corals in the same tank. The cheato was perfectly adquate to keep things zero'd.



You may find this helpful to you for learning about algae nutrient export ratios and points which differnt types of algaes can and can not grow.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm



Ammonium enters through decaying material. I think the jumbo frozen dinner prawns I feed the anemonies work well for this purpose. After the annomnies have partially digested them and ejected them, I just allow them to decay in the bottom of the tank. It takes about 1-2 days for them dissapear just sitting on the bottom of the tank due to all the detrivores.



I would like to think of the system as an ATS system, only useing cheato rather than a turf algae.

I assume you are perfectly aware of inland aquatics setups. Tremendous sucess with breeding, SPS, and everyother angle of reefkeeping all with nothing more than harvesting algae. No skimming, no waterchanges for 5 years running.

Anyways, I am trying to hold back here to keep this a discussion rather than an argument, and I really respect how professionally you handle yourself. Its a breath of fresh air compaired to the forums I am used to.

thanks for making such a nice site!

-Luke

 

[snobanker]

I had a bad phosphate problem before I had an RO/DI unit so I put in a phosban reactor. It worked great. At one point I stopped using it because I thought the pump stopped working. (It was actually a bad outlet on the power strip) Anyway I use an RO/DI now and I have never had a phosphate problem again. I have not used the reactor since the pump thing but I may start using it to run my carbon. I wish I had the screw top version

As far as the other part of this thread I use a skimmer and have chaeto in a fuge with the lighting used by Luke. My skimmer skims skimmate skillfully in significantly sizable supply and my chaeto greedily grows green grandly so I assume both are doing something . Nitrates and Phos are both 0. I have been pretty happy with the results so far.

By the way this type of debate helps to stimulate the rest of us into thinking about all the different facets, techniques and philosophies of this hobby. I think it's great and am glad it can be conducted in a non-hostile manner here on RF. Another reason why I like this place so much.

 

[Krish]

By the way this type of debate helps to stimulate the rest of us into thinking about all the different facets, techniques and philosophies of this hobby. I think it's great and am glad it can be conducted in a non-hostile manner here on RF. Another reason why I like this place so much.

I agree with you Stan...Great place! You learn a lot here because people want to learn here...Not show who "knows more than the other". Don't follow me though...I don't know very much:lol:

 

[mojoreef]

Ammonium enters through decaying material.

Ah so part of the nitrogen cycle then??

I dont want anyone to forget that in the presence of NH4 (required for a complex chemical reason to begin process), can directly utilize and bind both NH3 and NH4 directly. This means, prior to it getting started in the nitrogen cycle guys, as in, it doesnt even get the chance to become nitrate.

The way to attain useful data reguardinig the nutrient export ratios is to simply grow a mass of algae, then harvest the algae and perform a quanitative analisis of its biomass with reguards to N and P.

You are missing my point. In testing done where N was limited the ratio skewed, heavily as I quoted. You are assumng that N is more available then P in peoples tanks. With the way most reef tanks are set up (ex: LR, sand and so on) we have a skewed enviroment that better deals with N, via complex biochemical reactions. At the same time we add a ton of P and have no real means to deal with it (if you are going the natural route).
In the link you provided the individual was dealing with a cyano problem, his answer to the problem was to put the cyano in the dark which killed it and thus released all the N in it. Because of this he says his tank was now rid of the cyano that plagued it....ok..I guess.

So what we must do is get rid of our skimming export medium and all other forms of element addition. Put chaeto in a sump with light, dont perform WC's and dose nitrate ridden detritus from a seperate source?? (tell me if I missed something)
Sorry my friend not going to go down that road, I was thier about a decade ago.

So, seriously, I want to double your specific feeding rate (as in, food / gal) for experimental purposes so we can dispell this myth that my tanks work and are algae free due to low nutrient input.

To be honest I have no idea how much I feed my fish, lol they get a handfull of food everyday I remember, sometimes twice a day if I feel guilty.

It takes about 1-2 days for them dissapear just sitting on the bottom of the tank due to all the detrivores.

Ahh another point I was trying to make earlier, it doesnt dissapear its just trapped in biomass,which leads to more biomass and so on. The only thing that gets removed from the tank is the small amount of Inorganic N/P that is bound by the algae and harvested. That is unless of course you are harvesting detroviors??

I assume you are perfectly aware of inland aquatics setups. Tremendous sucess with breeding, SPS, and everyother angle of reefkeeping all with nothing more than harvesting algae. No skimming, no waterchanges for 5 years running.

Yep been their a few times and have talked with the owner many times, I would suggest a visit to you Maybe he will pee in his sump for ya (that wasnt a joke either, lol)
Again Liveforphysics I have no problems with using chaeto as a means of export for those so inclined. As for the rest of the methodology I find it to be a bit loose at best. The difference in methods between us is that you wish to use complex and interdependant living organisms to bind and cycle nutrients with an amount of exportation through the harvesting of bound up Inorganic material. Myself I perfer to skip that whole process and just remove it prior to decay or composting.
I think the test of time is always best in these cases, so lets see how things work out down the road.

thanks for the conversation!

Mike

 

[liveforphysics]

Yes, very good discussion sir. I love good discussion nearly as much as I love good experiments.

"That is unless of course you are harvesting detroviors??"

Hmm... that gives me some ideas... I have been shakeing the pods and detrivoirs out of the cheato I harvest, but I will now quit that. It also is really giveing me an idea about makeing a fine screan mesh low velocity/high CSA area in the tank to work as a mechanical filter to try to localize the detrivoir population for easy extraction. Obvously thats much too crude of design at the moment, and it would likely require something like a seeded canister filter with a series of metal mesh screans to trap detritus and hold detrivoirs over a certian size.

However, do to that thermodynamic and conservation of energy deal, I do know that the detrivoires body mass should be less than 10% of the material/energy which it consumes. I also know that each detrivoirs waste is further broken down and should eventually become absorbable through the cheato. But yes, you are right, I do need to harvest detrivoirs to make the equation ballence. I will work on thinking of a plan for that when my mind is no so sleep deprived.

Thank you sir for the intelligant discourse, I look forward to doing it again sometime. You have earned my respect.

-Luke