phosban reactors

[mojoreef]

However, do to that thermodynamic and conservation of energy deal

Yes that but what happens when one/a few or a bunch die?? then all thier mass including all they have bound to thier matrix goes back into the pot as nutrients again. Also it assumes that all food is consumed, when in reality only a percentage is. We did some experimenting a whil back where we used calculation models based on solid info from Sorokin as to the population base of fuana in lagoonal sand substraights (closest thing to a DSB set up). We were trying to figure out how many critters it would take using the Laws you listed (incuding bacteria) to reduce/bind/burn off the amount of food inputed. Even using pretty low inputs the critter population was incredable, it would have had to be almost a solid living mass of critters 6 inches deep. The stumbling block was recruitment, in our tank we only have a set amount of critters (after maturity) from thier it becomes a slow decline of most with a coming into dominance of one type of worm, bottom line a decline overall. In the wild a same size aea of sand has a huge recruitment factor where the vast majority of fuana comes from outside. It just cant be duplicate, not even close, kind of disapointing.

But yes, you are right, I do need to harvest detrivoirs to make the equation ballence. I will work on thinking of a plan for that when my mind is no so sleep deprived.

Thier is a simple and easy way to harvest detroviors and get about 90% of the nutrient at the same time my friend.

Harvest the detritus???


Mike

 

[DonW]

Ive really never understood the Chaeto thing. I know the plants are supposed to use the nutrients then you throw the plants away as they grow. Wont they actually stop growing or die off once the tank is clean? Isnt this die off toxic? My thinking is that you want a system so low on nutrients that chaeto will not survive. I would think if you had thriving chaeto, you would have more unwanted nutrients than desired.

Don

 

[snobanker]

Ive really never understood the Chaeto thing. I know the plants are supposed to use the nutrients then you throw the plants away as they grow. Wont they actually stop growing or die off once the tank is clean? Isnt this die off toxic? My thinking is that you want a system so low on nutrients that chaeto will not survive. I would think if you had thriving chaeto, you would have more unwanted nutrients than desired.

Don

Don I would think the same thing. I have growing chaeto and no measurable Phos or Nit. I'm really not sure why.

 

[liveforphysics]

Well, you guys must understand there IS ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in all of our tanks all of the time. Its just hopefully being kept immeasureablely low through some means.

I use cheato as my means for this.

-Luke

 

[spongebob lover]

Ive really never understood the Chaeto thing. I know the plants are supposed to use the nutrients then you throw the plants away as they grow. Wont they actually stop growing or die off once the tank is clean? Isnt this die off toxic? My thinking is that you want a system so low on nutrients that chaeto will not survive. I would think if you had thriving chaeto, you would have more unwanted nutrients than desired.

i thought that after it over grows in your sump, you guys dump it in the garbage or give it away and that's why you have no P or N

 

[Krish]

i thought that after it over grows in your sump, you guys dump it in the garbage or give it away and that's why you have no P or N

From what I understand of the whole thing, you dump some, but not all the chaeto. You export the P and N when you cut it back (because I think it will only grow so much) and then allow what's left to continue to grow again and start the whole "cycle" all over again...

 

[spongebob lover]

yeah dood, sorry that's what i mean by dumping it, you don't throw all but just some.

 

[mojoreef]

Don the concept is to bind whatever inorganic forms of P and N are available, again the same concept as folks that use ferric oxide. With the harvesting of the plant your are performing exportation. The same applies with the ferric, it can only bind so much until it also needs to be thrown out.
The part about feeding the algae N (as in dumping in detritus) is simular to those folks that dose vodka in order to hyper their activity.

Again either the use of chaeto or ferric can be used as a compliment in P or N exportation. Their nitche is when either of those two nutrients is in inorganic form. If one looks at the N and P cycle you will find that both are very desired by most all critters in our tanks (includinng corals) thus the majority of P and N is bound up organically (as in something ate it and now its part of them) when something dies, or when we add food and so on we are putting in inorganic forms, at that point if something doesnt bind it (as in eat it) it can be available for either chaeto or ferric to bind it up to them, in the case of chaeto it has now become organic again, in ferric it is just chemically bound.
If one can get a reading of either N or P of a test kit that is telling you that your tank is so saturated with these desirable nutrients that their is nothing left to bind it.
When looking at nutrient control its not a one stop shop, we must look at the whole package.
> are the foods we feed overloaded with P or N (ex: most flake foods are loaded)
>are the additives we are using loaded?? (additives that use glucose/sugar) are loaded
>salt mixes (some salt mixes are loaded with N, if not they are loaded with P, some have both if we use the N types we have a better system to deal with them)
>Some sand types (aragonite sand is fully chemically saturated prior to coming out of the bag, if we allow it to become anaerobic with chemically release all that is bound)

Nutrient are in many forms in our tanks
>Particulate, usually fish waste, shedding, or left over food are we doing are best to control that or clean up after it?
>disolved, usually comes from decaying material, the gills of our fish and other higher life forms?? do we have a strategy to deal with that?? LR, sand, skimmer, ozone, skimmer, algae and so on.

Limit the input as best as you can while keeping your critters healthy and do your best to export as much of the waste you get and you will win the battle.


Mike

 

[DonW]

Mike,
I understand the whole export thing. I was just thinking we were trying to get nutrient levels even lower, to low for even the macro to survive.

Don

 

[mojoreef]

Well Don that is the plan, sometimes however if you run a high bioload that can be an adventure. Sometimes even without a high bioload but with out preditation you can be up against it to.


Mike

 

[sumpfinfishe]

Amazing discussion:exclaim:

 

[spongebob lover]

Well Don that is the plan, sometimes however if you run a high bioload that can be an adventure. Sometimes even without a high bioload but with out preditation you can be up against it to

dood what could happen? would you end up with tons of dead stuff?

 

[mojoreef]

No you end up with an enviroment that is more to the liking of algae, instead of corals.


Mike

 

[Krish]

No you end up with an enviroment that is more to the liking of algae, instead of corals.


Mike

He means like your tank Gabby... HA!:lol:

 

[spongebob lover]

He means like your tank Gabby... HA!

yeah no kidding i think that's what happened to me about 2 years ago.
Thanks Mike.

 

[spongebob lover]

now that i think about it, now i know why i like you sprout :lol:

 

[Krish]

yeah no kidding i think that's what happened to me about 2 years ago.
Thanks Mike.

If you lived in my neck of the woods, I'd send you mine for free Gabby (phosban reactor) and just buy myself the twist lock one I guess that's not helping you huh? You could have my Seio's as well, but I guess that's not helping you either(LOL)

 

[spongebob lover]

If you lived in my neck of the woods, I'd send you mine for free Gabby (phosban reactor) and just buy myself the twist lock one I guess that's not helping you huh? You could have my Seio's as well, but I guess that's not helping you either(LOL)

LMBO !!!
Thank you buddy, but now that i remember valentine's is coming i'm gonna try getting my phosban (the twist lock one )

 

[Krish]

LMBO !!!
Thank you buddy, but now that i remember valentine's is coming i'm gonna try getting my phosban (the twist lock one )

Good thinking seeing your hubby already bought a new plasma tv! You should shoot for a few more things IMO

 

[liveforphysics]

Don W- I saw your question back there and I will try to answer it for you.

My nitrates on a salifert low range test have stayed undectable for about 6months or so now (since i bought the low range kit). The PO4 has just NEVER been above zero except during the time I freaked when my xenia crashed from lack of Iodine and I set the skimmer up for a couple days thinking it might have been something IN the water rather than something (I2) missing from the water. After those couple days of skimming, my P jumped to something like 0.1ppm. This was the first time in months I experienced a slight haze coating of visible on the glass. After doesing some nitrate rich water to spur a blast of cheato growth, the PO4 was imeadiately back to zero (nitrates were also zero again by the next day), and I havent has a single bit of algae appear since.



Now, for your answer. During this entire time nitrate and phosphate has been undectable, the cheato has been growing like crazy. I dont harvest it unless I have a pet store to trade it in for store credit, or a member of the board to give it to. Ideally, I should harvest it more often to try to maintain the smallest amount of cheato required to keep up with the rate nutrients enter the tank. Im just not paranoid about it crashing though, so I dont really care when I have it accumulate to a few lbs before I havest it.