Red Bugs - Inevitable?

[fishermann]

Nick just read your post and completely agree, it does not wipe them out, but it sure sets them back and they do rebuild in time, and I helped by reseeding mine. Probably depends on if you have a DSB or BB too. I have a BB and would guess I would not have near the pod pop. that someone with a sand bed has. Infact after this recent treatment I trapped my Mandarin when I saw him losing weight and he is in a friends refuge that runs a DSB until I get the pods back up.

 

[reedman]

Thanks for understanding the question everyone. I'm glad it was taken the correct way. I'm already starting the process of lining up the interceptor and will probably get it and wait to see any negative effects. Maybe one day I'll have enough guts to put it in the tank.

It just blows me away that I have the bugs (in a rather large quantity) and I see no die off, no color loss, nothing. If the polyps extended any farther at night I think they would fall out of the coral. Just strange.

If I could just order some of those nice little acro crabs to replace the ones that I will kill by dosing I wouldn't mind quite as much. I mean, I felt like I won the lotto when I had 2 of them come in on one small coral.

Anyway, thanks for understanding and providing feedback. I'm glad the treatment is saving corals in others tanks. That is truely great news.

Keep the results coming and if anyone finds new info (scientific or conjecture) please post it for all to see.

-Reed

 

[NaH2O]

It means the bugs are tearing through the tissue (2 cell layers deep) to either eat it or extract something. Personally I would guess they are going after protiens (since that is a major form of thier matrix) and that would explain the loss of coloration. The video was the last peice I needed in order to make the jump.

Mike - I don't know if you saw the link I put in the first post of this thread...it has microscopic images of the bugs gut. Here is what Eric B had to say about it:

I think those excellent microscopy photos in the first post are very telling - the epiflourescence shows red in the gut, and chl shows up red. Zooxanthellae would be my guess given the digging, the fluorescence in the gut and the bleaching signs on infested corals. The thing that gets me is why, then, Acropora? As far as is known, I-P Acropora do not host a genus-specific clade of zoox - perhaps I should look to see what clade they do host, and see what other corals have that clade and offer those corals to the bugs. Perhaps the distinct smell of Acropora is their cue, and not the zoox. I don't know.

 

[jlehigh]

This has been an awesome thread. Good job all.

I am totally with Reed on this, in that it will take an awefull lot of evidence to convince me to kill my loveable Acro crabs I have 4 or 5 myself and I watch them more than most critters in my tank..

Help me out here because the quote from EricHugo raises a question with me and that is: Who cares if Zooxanthellae are being cunsumed in small amounts by a bunch of bugs?

Bare with me here.
My understanding is the zoox are the primary provider of sugars via photosynthesis and are always brown, beige or green in color. The coloration we want is the pigment of the coral itself which evidence suggests acts as a gaurd reflecting excess light away from the coral preventing damage from too much and or too intense lighting.

I can understand boring type activities causing stress, but the loss of coloration stumps me. Maybe the zoox population grows to negate the consumption of the red-bugs?? Who knows.. I love my acro crabs!!! snf snf

 

[mojoreef]

I don't know if you saw the link I put in the first post of this thread...it has microscopic images of the bugs gut. Here is what Eric B had to say about it:

yea I read that, but I dont believe it to be zoox. Thier are to many corals with zoox that are not effected, even with in the same type of corals. Once passed zoox, the choices are limited, Maybe something be transfered by the electron transport system or center, but I dought. Now if you look at pigments (which are protiens) thier are a variety of types, both with in the zoox and the corals tissue itself. Since most arthropods are very high in protien, I would imagine its a top choice as a food choice, thus my best guess. This would account for bleach spots as it removes the protiens from the zoox (thus killing it) and the loss of coloration (probibly from the removal of protien pigments in the tissue, The coloration of the bug itself and so on. But again its just an educated guess.

Hi jlehigh!!

Who cares if Zooxanthellae are being cunsumed in small amounts by a bunch of bugs?

Well as you mentioned Zoox make up for the vast majority of the energy budjet of the coral. Now even with this budjet getting all it needs and not having to repair itself its a tight fit. Now you through in the something eating it and removing portions of that budjet and your really making the coral ride the line. As in if something else happens or an event happens will the coral have enough energy to deal with it. Or at least that is the way I am looking at it.

My understanding is the zoox are the primary provider of sugars via photosynthesis and are always brown, beige or green in color. The coloration we want is the pigment of the coral itself which evidence suggests acts as a gaurd reflecting excess light away from the coral preventing damage from too much and or too intense lighting.

Pigments are present in both the zoox and the corals tissue and if the bugs are leaving bleached spots then that would stand to reason that it is removing both zoox and tissue pigment.




mike

 

[Maxx]

If I could just order some of those nice little acro crabs to replace the ones that I will kill by dosing I wouldn't mind quite as much. I mean, I felt like I won the lotto when I had 2 of them come in on one small coral.

Reed,
I was able to save the two small acro crabs in my tank. I did have to remove the corals from the tank, then chase them out of their home with a small thin knife blade. They were relocated to a QT tank for about a week, then placed back into their corals. I didnt like haveing to remove the corals from their mounts, but it was the only way I knew of to get the crabs out so they would survive the treatment. I wound up losing 3 hermit crabs out due to the treatment. One was a day after the treatment, water change, and carbon....so I did another water change before adding them.

My mindset was this...the coral will reattach to where you had it originally...the crabs wont grow back.

Nick

 

[MtnDewMan]

Chuck If you need some interceptor, I would be glad to give you some, would be the least I could do for the help you gave me years ago when first starting to keep corals.

Thanks John. Will let you know if I need some. I have a couple of possible connections at the moment. I want to try to do the first treatment this weekend if possible.

 

[mojoreef]

Ok aftermath of round one. Two cleaner shrimps toast, 6 still kicking. Bunch of dead acro crabs and a few still kicking. No real noticible changes to speak of right now. I think I will do another treatent tommorrow.


Mike

 

[CarlaW]

How is everything looking aside from the carnage? It actually doesn't sound like you lost as much as you could have tho, that's good.

 

[mojoreef]

No other then what I listed all looks fine, no other noticable other things dieing



MIke

 

[mojoreef]

Wooo hoooo I found some!!!!!!!!


mike

 

[NaH2O]

Mike - does that mean you found acro crabs to buy? Cool!

 

[mojoreef]

Maybe, lol

Ok did round two today. Another 2 1/2 pills and another 200 gallon water change. No more deaths this time, sam acro crabs survived and the same amount of shrimp. So total loss was the vast majority of my acro crabs (about 15) and 2 cleaner shrimp.
Not as much extension on the polyps this time round as the first, but they were out more then normal and then back to normal after the water change. Nothing on color yet.


Mike

 

[Maxx]

Mike, I'm impressed your surviving acro crabs are unaffected...are they really large or just mutants?
On a serious note...if they are still surviving the second dose, I would seriously consider doing a third dose, just to be on the safe side.

Nick

 

[mojoreef]

Yea Nick it seems that everything that made it through the first round handled the 2nd round the same way. The acro crabs were of the normal porcelain variety, just a little larger then most. The one thing that I did notice was a huge drop in the orp of the tank. It went down about a 100 points, after the water change it only came up around 30 and seems to be on the rise now. So we know that the meds did kill alot of something!! I am not sure on the 3rd dose Nick, I have changed more water in the last week then I have in the last decade, so I ma going to try to see if I can see any first.
Mike

 

[dgasmd]

Mike:

Maybe I missed this, but how much time was there between your first and second treatment? You should have spaced the treatments by about a week at least, otherwise I don't think your second treatment was any more effective than just doing the first one.

There is no question this stuff kills the bugs the first time around, but if you read the reasoning for the second and third treatment it will make sense to you. Now, some poeple ,ike Boreneman seem to think these bugs give birth to other live bugs rather than having some egg/larvae stage or somthing similar, so if that is the case then the bugs should be dead and not coming back after the first treatment.

The first time I treated for them, I did the treatments like 2 days apart and did not even change water. I think this medication becomes inactive after some hours in your system because I have added snails and crabs to that same tank with the same water still and they are all doing well. Hoever, the original ones died after the first treatment. Food for thought here.

 

[NaH2O]

Alberto - I don't know how long you've been following the thread, but Eric B put up a post earlier about the bug's brood pouch. I believe you can see them (brood pouch) in the microscopic images in a link from the first post.

They are direct developers, so no larval stage to worry about (females have a brood pouch, I got nearly 20 from 5 adults after two weeks).

 

[mojoreef]

I am not sure what the overall train of thought is on this Alberto. I was working on the basis that the second and third doses were for anything that happened survive the first round. With no larval stage if figure if the parent dies it will take the kids with them. I did my treatment about 4 days apart.
I think you have to figure that some bugs will survive just one treatment, by finding a water source that does not get treated (ie: in a hole, or crevise or something simular). Having the orp drop tells me that something got killed on the second dose, what I am not sure.

How did yours do after the second dose??


Mike

 

[dgasmd]

I did not start following the thread fromt he begining and may be why I did not know about the pictures. I will go back and check it out.

What I did do was to treat the tank. Then, 6 hours later I did like a 150g (1000g system) water change and added carbon as well as starting the skimmer. About 8-9 days later I did another treatment. Have not changed the carbon since, which I will do tomorrow, and did change maybe 200g (total) or so of water in a couple of different occasions. Not a single bug to be found to this date.

I sort of held off on the thrid treatment because I was getting tired of the larger water changes, changing carbon, and everything else in between.

 

[fishermann]

I only did one treatment and haven't seen any bugs since either time until I reintroduced them myself the second time.