Red Bugs - Inevitable?

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I understand what you are saying, Erik. I want people to know they need to keep this medication out of the reach of their pets, if they aren't heartworm negative. I'm not implying people would be dumping their dogs into the tank, but I'm thinking of the lovely beef flavor that the dog will be after inside the package. My great dane would chew through the package if I ever left something like that on the table. Just want people to be cautious on where they are keeping the package.
 
Well, any last minute advice from all you "experts" who have treated already?

Thanks to John (jlehigh) I now have no excuse to not treat, and every reason to. So either tomarrow or next weekend I will be dosing and water changing to rid my tank of these bloody bugs.

I hope my tank sees the same kind of color/growth improvements others have seen.
 
Just an update -

The bugs are finally in the hands of Jim Thomas and he and I are working on a paper to describe them...we plan on it for a "Reef Sites" or "Reef Notes" in Coral Reefs.

If any of you wiht live red bugs would be so kind as to send me some, I can continue doing tests with them. Have several leads on chitin inhibitors that do no affect anything but chitin.

Also, I repeatedly hear about how taking corals out of a tank is impossible. I have a 600 gallon system and every rock is glued to every other rock with coral. If I had a parasite that threatened the integrity of certain species, and I knew that the treatment would kill other desirable organims, I'd remove the corals. Yeah, I'd break them at their attachment and put them in a treatment tank. Given that it takes all of about three weeks for a coral like Acropora to reattach itself, isn't it worth removing them to save all the other animals from the effects of the drug. Ironically, its the people who seem to be so good at growing Acropora with the most concern. Anyone who grows this genus well should think about diddly about breaking a branch or two to free up a colony, or even breaking up a colony to save the Trapeziids or Tertraliads in them. My god, they'll refuse their branches in a few weeks.

Anyway, I would love to get some more red bugs, but do not have any that are not preserved, and none to continue experimentin on...so before you guys blast your tanks, think about sending me down a parastiized branch or two - and if you think you have multiple types, so much the better. I'll take a look and send them to Dr Thomas, as well. I already have a black one that parasitizes Montipora. There are probably more types out there.
 
Eric,
If you don't get all the colony out, is it not possible that there would still be red bugs in the system?
I really appreciate the research that you are doing. If I still had the bugs, I would be glad to send you some. :D
 
reedman said:
Well, any last minute advice from all you "experts" who have treated already?

Thanks to John (jlehigh) I now have no excuse to not treat, and every reason to. So either tomarrow or next weekend I will be dosing and water changing to rid my tank of these bloody bugs.

I hope my tank sees the same kind of color/growth improvements others have seen.

Good luck Reed, wishing you the best.
 
charlie said:
Eric,
If you don't get all the colony out, is it not possible that there would still be red bugs in the system?

My thoughts as well Charlie.

However, I think Eric was saying that folks should have no issues breaking up the corals in order to get the acro crabs out, then treating the tank.

Nick
 
IF there are other susceptible Acropora in the system, yes, they may be present, but as I mentioned they die in 3-4 without a host. Whether or not they exist or will swim off onto other colonies it a good question. My suggestion is this: I prize my old and my favorite Acropora, and I'll be damned if some bug is going to kill them. I would get a large tupperware container with water flow, remove all Acropora, treat for one day, do a complete water change in the tupperware contianer, and use a magnifying glass to inspect every nook of every colony. Then keep them in the nice fresh circulating water for 3 more days and put them all back in the tank. You can keep them alive in the tupperwar without issue with a couple of flurescents or a 30 dollar 65 watt Lights of AMerica PC light and good water flow for weeks. Use carbon and skimmer if you have to. When you are sure the colonies are bug free and you've waited the time..shoot make it five days to be sure, then add the corals back to the tan and you're home free, no unecessary deaths, healthy corals, no bugs, and your whole collection intact. Yeah, its more work than "treating the tank" but at least for me, my special corals and saving all the other nematodes, polychaetes and crustaceans is worth a little work. You can also more easily examine colonies that you can through the glass and water column of a large aquarum in the bin - you can take th colonies out, and hebugs can't really move out of water and are easily seenwith a halogen or other point-type light.
 
I see it in a slightly different way Eric. My prise acropora is encrusted all over the rocks with in the tank. I am not going to take a screw driver to this colony to break it off the rock and then scrape all the basing off the rock to make sure their isn't a place for the bugs to live while I treat the corals in a satellite tank. Now to times this by dozens and dozens of corals all of which I am now risking for the sake of possibly loosing a shrimp I couldn't catch or an acro crab that is buried in a colony and so on is just NOT worth the risk.
Now I am with you in regards to doing all we can to safe guard against killing creature but all people that have anything to do with corals or reefs kill some things at some point in time. Some times we say its in the name of science/knowledge, sometimes just by a stupid mistake or series of unfortunate circumstances, but I don't think any one is purposely trying to kill creatures in thier reef tank.


Mike
 
Why not just take that rock with it? Rock is a couple buks a pound?

I had a rock with this gorgeous skyblue and twisted Acropora on it maybe a foot across. On the same rock were some bright orange zoanthids, and a pink and orange large colony of M, digitata....the color was shocking. Thing is, the zoanthids were overgrowing both colonies, and I only had the tips of the digitata showing. I took the three pound rock, snipped all the digitata tips and reglued them together on another rock knowing in six months it would look the same as it always had,, and broke my gorgeous blue Acropora. That same Acropora has already grown tremendously and in a few months will look just like it once did. The zoanthids I put in the sump. I actually did chisel off the base of the blue Acropora and made a nice frag from it, already forming axial corallites. The only downside is I am out a three pound piece of rock that is now rubble for amphipods in the sump, and I lost about three inches of the original digitata from the zoanthids growing over it.

Net loss, nothing. Net gain, one blue acropora fragment, some sump rubble, saved the digitata entirely, and a slight loss of regrowth time. Saved the commensal crabs, all worms in the colony, even the sponges in the zoanthid colony. Total time it took? three hours. Now, in the scheme of things, three hours to save everything means something to me. I even save amphipods that jump off corals onto my hand.

But, if you want to do it your way, its your tank. Do what you want.
 
yes...chisel it, cut it, whatever.It sounds like you guys value live rock a lot more than I do.
 
Why not just take that rock with it? Rock is a couple buks a pound?
All my rocks are large, 20 lbs at least and are dowel pinned to each other to make the rock piles. Its not a matter of time Eric or inconvience its a matter of risk to me. I have broken out corals from my tank and had sucess and with some I have had mortality. I will always do what I can to save anything that is in my tank, but I also measure the risk involved with a coral that has been growing in my tank for years. It doesnt make me a bad guy, just someone that is unwilling to take that kind of a risk


Mike
 
I have ones much larger than that Mike. Like I said, its your tanks, do what you want.

Of course, a fifty bug quarantine tank would have avoided all this cheaper than even the cost of the drug to begin with.
 
That it is Eric that it is.
Of course, a fifty bug quarantine tank would have avoided all this cheaper than even the cost of the drug to begin with.
Aint that the truth!!, now if I only knew that these bugs were a problem back then or if someone would have come up with a cure the last time I added a coral my quarantine tank would have been more effective.


MIke
 
now if I only knew that these bugs were a problem back then
This is the simple truth. You can QT everything that you get, but if you don't know about the pathogen/pest you can't stop it from coming into your system. Well stated Mike.
 
1st treatment is in the tank. I'm hoping the cleaner shrimp pulls through. I tried for 3 hours to get him out, but he was having nothing to do with it. I'll post after the water change with observations.
 
Reed,
I was only able to get one of my blood shrimp out before the 1st treatment. The 2nd one was in the tank for right about 5 hours during the 1st treatment. He began to appear sluggish, and not as fast at evading me, so I was able to get him out. He survived with no visible effects from the treatment. He did ,however, shed either the next day after the treatment, or the 2nd day after the treatment. I feel this is not due to the treatment, but rather something that was going to happen despite the treatment. I was able to lure the 1st shrimp into my hand, using mysis and brine shrimp plus. The 2nd one wasnt really interested in the food that much and I wasnt able to coax it off the rocks to be placed in the QT tank for safe keeping until much later.

I only mention the shedding because I dont know if that might have helped it deal with the Milbemycin Oxime better or not.

Good luck.

Nick
 
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